April 9, 2024

The Write Prescription: Randi Hutter Epstein's Medical Journey to Journalism

The Write Prescription: Randi Hutter Epstein's Medical Journey to Journalism
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Season 4

Would you go to medical school to become a better writer? Randi Hutter Epstein did.

Unconventional best defines the career journey of the multi-talented Medical Journalist, Author, College Professor, and MD, Randi Hutter Epstein. Coming out of college, Randi knew two things: she wanted to write and was fascinated by the medical field. What to do? Her father, a physician, challenged her to embrace both, which led to Randi enrolling at Yale Medical School—with the full knowledge that she would (most likely) never practice medicine. The journey that followed is fascinating, inspiring, and still evolving.

In this episode, we will:

• Experience the Growth Mindset in action.
• Discover how to succeed as a reporter living overseas.
• Get a look at how a medical journalist discovers and pursues a story idea.
• Explore the life of a modern-day college professor.

Randi’s experience goes to show that there's no single way to success. Whether she's nurturing the next generation of writers at Columbia and Yale, authoring books that captivate readers, or shaping stories for top publications, her path highlights the beauty of following your own compass.

Randi’s story is a testament to building a career on your terms, embracing learning at every turn, and pushing against the expected.


To discover more episodes or connect with us:


Chapters

00:02 - Medical Journalist Randy Hutter Epstein

09:43 - Navigating Career Choices in Medicine

15:47 - Navigating Medical School and Journalism Pathways

25:23 - From Medical School to Journalism Career

32:57 - Editorial Influence on Writing Success

45:39 - Teaching Journalism

01:00:27 - Passion and Curiosity in Journalism

Transcript
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00:00:02.785 --> 00:00:14.067
Hello and welcome to the Career Journey Podcast no Wrong Choices, where we speak with some of the world's most interesting and accomplished people to shine a light on the many different ways we can achieve success.

00:00:14.067 --> 00:00:20.365
I'm Larry Samuels, soon to be joined by Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea To help support our show.

00:00:20.365 --> 00:00:25.025
Please be sure to like and follow no Wrong Choices on your favorite podcasting platform.

00:00:25.025 --> 00:00:33.643
Connect with us on LinkedIn, instagram, youtube, facebook X and Threads, or visit our website at norongchoicescom.

00:00:33.643 --> 00:00:40.462
This episode features the medical journalist, author, professor and MD Randy Hutter.

00:00:40.462 --> 00:00:49.826
Epstein Tushar as, in some ways, a fellow journalist and writer and reporter, why don't you lead us into this conversation?

00:00:50.508 --> 00:00:55.587
all I'll say is this if you look at this woman's resume, we are not smart enough to speak to this person.

00:00:55.587 --> 00:00:56.850
I gotta be quite honest with you.

00:00:56.850 --> 00:00:58.680
Um, look she.

00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:10.548
She obviously is a prolific writer and you know she went to not only journalism school but she said, okay, that wasn't enough, I'm gonna go to medical school as well, just just for the hell of it.

00:01:10.548 --> 00:01:15.484
I mean, that is crazy, the amount of academic rigor that you have to go through with this.

00:01:16.246 --> 00:01:20.003
And she has managed to build a career as a freelance journalist.

00:01:20.003 --> 00:01:20.944
I don't think she, if you.

00:01:20.944 --> 00:01:23.471
I don't think she's ever had a full-time gig.

00:01:23.471 --> 00:01:25.329
She's worked obviously places, but I don't think she's ever had a full-time gig.

00:01:25.329 --> 00:01:27.079
She's worked obviously places, but I don't think she's ever had a full-time gig.

00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:28.843
Now you look at my resume.

00:01:28.843 --> 00:01:33.251
It goes from freelancing to full-time positions, freelancing to full-time positions.

00:01:33.251 --> 00:01:41.674
I have a good mix, but for someone to say that they're going to essentially build their career around never having a full-time gig, that takes a heck of a lot of courage.

00:01:41.674 --> 00:01:48.457
And Randy Hutter Epstein is no joke when it comes to speaking to people who know what they're talking about.

00:01:48.477 --> 00:01:50.259
Yeah, I'm going to second your thought about the resume.

00:01:50.259 --> 00:01:53.650
Again, I am feeling like a bit of an underachiever.

00:01:53.650 --> 00:01:55.746
We're all underachievers next time.

00:01:56.180 --> 00:01:59.409
Embark on this incredible interview that we're about to do.

00:01:59.409 --> 00:02:03.861
And you're right, she's an impressive person and we're going to have a lot of fun with this one.

00:02:03.861 --> 00:02:05.625
She's an impressive person and we're going to have a lot of fun with this one.

00:02:05.625 --> 00:02:09.049
I can't wait to dig in because she wears a lot of hats and I can't wait to see how they all fit together.

00:02:09.049 --> 00:02:10.191
You know, you're right.

00:02:10.191 --> 00:02:14.856
T, who goes to medical school with no intention of practicing medicine Just for the hell of it.

00:02:15.600 --> 00:02:16.585
We're going to dig into that.

00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.350
So fascinating, fascinating person and we can't wait to talk to her.

00:02:26.139 --> 00:02:27.504
Yeah, I'm sure this is going to be a great conversation.

00:02:27.504 --> 00:02:27.866
I will share that.

00:02:27.866 --> 00:02:37.781
I know her and I know her energy level and I know how interesting she is, so I have absolutely every confidence in the world that this conversation will live up to the expectations that we are setting.

00:02:37.781 --> 00:02:41.087
So with that, here is Randy Hutter Epstein.

00:02:41.087 --> 00:02:44.912
Now joining no Wrong Choices is the medical journalist, author, professor and MD Randy Hutter Epstein.

00:02:44.912 --> 00:02:48.014
Now joining no Wrong Choices is the medical journalist, author, professor and MD Randi Hutter Epstein.

00:02:48.014 --> 00:02:58.765
Randi currently teaches journalism at both Yale and Columbia University, while working on her next book and writing the occasional article for the New York Times and other national publications.

00:02:58.765 --> 00:03:00.450
Randi, thank you so much for joining us.

00:03:00.979 --> 00:03:02.967
I am so thrilled to be here.

00:03:03.600 --> 00:03:10.592
So I suppose, as we often do on this program, I should offer my full disclosure that Randy and I are friends.

00:03:10.592 --> 00:03:18.432
So there might be some inside baseball or inside jokes along the way, but it was my view that Randy would be a great guest today.

00:03:18.432 --> 00:03:25.854
Of course, she has taken, I think it's fair to say, an atypical path from the beginning to where we are today.

00:03:25.854 --> 00:03:35.562
So, Randy, with that, why don't you lead us into the conversation by telling us in your own words who is Randy Hutter Epstein and what do you do?

00:03:36.822 --> 00:03:37.562
Well gosh.

00:03:37.562 --> 00:04:06.638
Okay, so what I do is I teach and write about medicine, and so I guess my passion is accurate medical and science communication and public health communication, which I used to have to explain to people why it's important that we don't hear false things about medicine, and I'd have to like find an anecdote to explain.

00:04:06.638 --> 00:04:14.544
But now I kind of think we've lived with all this stuff, it's like an easy thing, it's to explain, so that's what I do.

00:04:14.544 --> 00:04:16.228
How did I get there?

00:04:16.228 --> 00:04:22.884
Circuitously, because I'm one of those people that isn't very focused.

00:04:22.963 --> 00:04:35.141
I have a lot of interests and so I kind of just studied liberal arts and liked science and liked writing and kind of like drawing and all these different things.

00:04:35.141 --> 00:04:42.567
And then by the end of college someone did mention oh well, if you like writing so much and you like medicine, you should do medical journalism.

00:04:42.567 --> 00:04:44.360
I didn't have any journalists in my family.

00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:46.326
I never thought about that.

00:04:46.326 --> 00:04:50.824
I didn't think of writing as something that you can do as a profession.

00:04:50.824 --> 00:04:59.990
So I ended up going to Columbia Journalism School where I learned a ton because I knew nothing.

00:04:59.990 --> 00:05:05.682
I was a clean slate, which is a nice way of saying I was completely ignorant going in.

00:05:05.783 --> 00:05:11.848
A lot of my classmates were like on the school newspaper for years and their parents were in the business and they knew all this jargon.

00:05:11.848 --> 00:05:13.908
I knew nothing, so they didn't have to.

00:05:13.908 --> 00:05:17.411
I didn't have to unlearn any bad habits, I had nothing.

00:05:17.411 --> 00:05:18.252
I was a clean slate.

00:05:18.252 --> 00:05:29.526
And then I did tie with the idea of should I go to medical school or not, and that my dad was a doctor who was a pathologist.

00:05:29.526 --> 00:05:30.730
So, yeah, that was an influence.

00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:35.583
There was no, oh, we want you to be a practicing physician.

00:05:35.603 --> 00:05:41.014
But my dad, who was really intellectual, kind of thought why wouldn't you want to learn more?

00:05:41.014 --> 00:05:41.982
Why wouldn't you know?

00:05:41.982 --> 00:05:45.329
If you want to write about something, why wouldn't you get educated in it?

00:05:45.329 --> 00:05:48.634
Why would you just spend years asking other people?

00:05:48.634 --> 00:05:59.180
So I did go on to medical school after journalism school, have an MD, but I did not do a residency or internship or anything.

00:05:59.180 --> 00:06:00.221
So I'm not licensed.

00:06:00.221 --> 00:06:01.785
I never practiced medicine.

00:06:01.785 --> 00:06:06.392
I used my well four years, but I did it in five years.

00:06:06.392 --> 00:06:08.922
I took time off, as many of my classmates did.

00:06:08.922 --> 00:06:32.769
So I use my medical education to inform the way I write about medicine and I would say that so I don't have the experience of being on the front line, I can't say I know what it's like when there's all this stress around and this is how you have to make last minute decisions, Though I've been next to people that have.

00:06:32.939 --> 00:06:35.028
So I think I have a sympathy for it.

00:06:35.028 --> 00:06:50.608
I think from my little experience in medicine, you know, compared to people like Larry's wife that's an expert that has spent many, many years in training and clinical practice I don't pull from that experience.

00:06:50.608 --> 00:07:04.750
But I pull from my little bit of experience of standing next to people and having had the wonderful privilege to be near people that have been in the throes of making those decisions, that have been in the throes of making those decisions.

00:07:05.732 --> 00:07:11.216
It's such a unique journey that you've had going to medical school but not practicing medicine, all of it.

00:07:11.216 --> 00:07:18.274
Let's take a deeper dive into how you got to where you are now, because you're obviously very knowledgeable.

00:07:18.274 --> 00:07:19.867
Were you always a good student?

00:07:19.867 --> 00:07:21.427
Did you grow up a good student?

00:07:21.427 --> 00:07:24.009
Was that always a part of what you wanted to do?

00:07:24.009 --> 00:07:28.151
You said your dad wanted you to get educated in this specifically because you showed interest.

00:07:28.151 --> 00:07:33.130
But when you were a little girl, was it like I'm going to get straight A's and that's just the way it is.

00:07:33.773 --> 00:07:40.351
Yeah, I mean, I wasn't like I wasn't one of those kids, but I don't really know anybody that really is.

00:07:40.351 --> 00:07:41.533
You know, it comes so easy.

00:07:41.533 --> 00:07:42.863
I didn't study because you did.

00:07:42.863 --> 00:07:48.064
No, I definitely was a studier, studied hard, played hard.

00:07:48.064 --> 00:07:52.093
But we can focus on the study hard part for this conversation.

00:07:52.093 --> 00:07:53.502
We have to.

00:07:54.946 --> 00:07:56.069
Of course we don't have to Come on.

00:07:57.899 --> 00:08:01.966
Yeah, I would say yeah, I wasn't.

00:08:01.966 --> 00:08:05.033
I'm not an efficient studier like my husband was.

00:08:05.033 --> 00:08:06.115
We went to college together.

00:08:06.115 --> 00:08:07.627
He could like go and focus.

00:08:07.627 --> 00:08:12.346
I'm not good at I don't want to say I'm not good at that.

00:08:12.346 --> 00:08:15.329
Some people have different kinds of attention spans.

00:08:15.329 --> 00:08:18.449
Mine is probably on the shorter end.

00:08:19.540 --> 00:08:21.127
You and I sound very similar.

00:08:22.742 --> 00:08:27.009
I study a little, I take a break, but yeah, I did always work hard in school.

00:08:27.819 --> 00:08:33.341
Initially, when we were all kind of pre-gaming this interview, one of my questions was are you crazy?

00:08:33.341 --> 00:08:40.250
Having gone down your career path, meaning you know, obviously you know journalism school is no walk in the park.

00:08:40.250 --> 00:08:48.634
But then to couple that with medical school afterwards during your years, I mean that is an unbelievably rigorous academic journey.

00:08:48.634 --> 00:08:56.052
I understand, having read your bio and having seen some other interviews with you, you wanted to be an architect.

00:08:56.052 --> 00:08:57.947
Your initial thoughts were you would be an architect.

00:08:57.947 --> 00:09:04.035
So what were some of the similarities that you saw, let's say, between architecture?

00:09:04.035 --> 00:09:07.226
And then, before you finally made that decision that you know what I want to go to med school?

00:09:07.226 --> 00:09:09.908
Did you see any similarities in those disciplines?

00:09:11.341 --> 00:09:26.793
I see there's creativity, a lot of observation, so I see that if I'm sort of pulling at things oh, you asked if I was crazy, but yes, but probably not in other walks of life.

00:09:27.380 --> 00:09:34.943
Right, right you know I mean, yeah, I like to do practical jokes, I like to do things like that, but that is yeah.

00:09:34.943 --> 00:09:42.475
So but I would say in retrospect it's very easy for me to say I did this school, then I did this school and then I did this.

00:09:42.475 --> 00:09:50.544
But at each step along the way there was definitely oh no, I made the wrong decision, maybe I should drop out.

00:09:50.544 --> 00:09:52.527
Oh no, maybe I shouldn't be doing this.

00:09:52.527 --> 00:09:58.130
So, for instance, yeah, medical school is kind of hard.

00:09:58.130 --> 00:09:59.133
Who would have thought that?

00:09:59.133 --> 00:10:03.202
So I did take time off to write, I did take time off to write.

00:10:03.202 --> 00:10:14.549
And then, after I was in medical school for two years and I would say I complained for oh, three years of the two years I was complaining about it.

00:10:14.549 --> 00:10:17.991
And then I did write a letter.

00:10:17.991 --> 00:10:22.054
I mean, I don't remember writing this letter, but I didn't send an email.

00:10:22.054 --> 00:10:23.735
It was in the 80s Somehow.

00:10:23.796 --> 00:10:25.197
So you had to send an actual letter.

00:10:25.297 --> 00:10:37.888
Somehow I communicated it must've been a letter to the Dean of students saying, like you know, thank you very much, but I don't think I'm going to be coming back and I'm still friendly with him.

00:10:37.888 --> 00:10:46.028
He's well into his nineties and we just went out for lunch recently and he basically, like my parents at that point, were like I can't.

00:10:46.028 --> 00:10:46.529
They're not.

00:10:46.529 --> 00:10:51.812
There's a limit as a parent what you can force someone to do when they're complaining that much.

00:10:51.812 --> 00:11:01.469
But he brought me into his office and said I know what you're thinking that the next two years are going to be a waste of your life.

00:11:01.469 --> 00:11:06.860
And you know, when you're in your 20s, every minute seems like this is a waste.

00:11:06.860 --> 00:11:08.544
If you know, I have to go on.

00:11:08.544 --> 00:11:12.332
And it seems like all your friends are accomplishing so much.

00:11:12.332 --> 00:11:14.926
By the time they're 24 and 25.

00:11:14.926 --> 00:11:15.326
I don't know.

00:11:15.326 --> 00:11:18.662
That's just sort of the image that I had of my I think you're right about that.

00:11:19.462 --> 00:11:28.196
People are writing and writing books and doing all this stuff and you know you read about it and for me it was like focusing on all these people that were doing really creative writing stuff.

00:11:28.196 --> 00:11:37.831
So he said to me, if you drop out now, it's going to look like you failed out and the two years behind you was a waste of time.

00:11:37.831 --> 00:11:39.225
That's definitely a waste.

00:11:39.225 --> 00:11:45.212
If you finish up the next two years, you don't have the pressure of applying for residency.

00:11:45.212 --> 00:11:48.951
You can think of it as this amazing reporting project.

00:11:48.951 --> 00:11:50.447
You want to write about medicine?

00:11:50.447 --> 00:11:50.884
You can.

00:11:50.884 --> 00:11:54.629
You'll see surgeries, you can do rotations and whatever you want.

00:11:56.361 --> 00:12:03.613
So I stayed and so I basically have my MD just because of him, dr Robert Gifford, who's just a wonderful person.

00:12:03.613 --> 00:12:23.655
So, yeah, so it wasn't like, yes, I'm a good student and yes, I do work hard, but I also I'm always questioning myself and thinking, yeah, well, actually I didn't know that there was this podcast at the time called no Wrong Choices, because I was like, did I make a wrong choice?

00:12:23.655 --> 00:12:27.423
Wrong choices?

00:12:27.423 --> 00:12:28.567
Because I was like, did I make a wrong choice?

00:12:28.567 --> 00:12:30.655
No one ever said to me there are no wrong choices and there'll be a podcast one day.

00:12:30.676 --> 00:12:32.902
With that we're hoping we're bringing that mission forward.

00:12:32.902 --> 00:12:38.712
We didn't know that either, so I do want to back up a second though.

00:12:38.712 --> 00:13:03.926
So you know, when you were at Penn and you were studying architecture and you eventually decided to pivot towards medicine, it's my understanding that you actually wanted to be a journalist, but your passions were tied to medicine and when you went into medical school you kind of had a unique vision for what you were going to do with that part of your life.

00:13:03.926 --> 00:13:05.450
Is that accurate or no?

00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:06.100
Kind of.

00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:15.989
I mean, I was only in architecture for like a year and then I took a science class and just a microbiology class and was like this is so interesting.

00:13:15.989 --> 00:13:23.905
I think I was so reluctant to go down that path because I was really close to my dad and he was a doctor and I just didn't want to be like, oh, now you're just doing something because your dad is doing it.

00:13:23.905 --> 00:13:35.442
But I really found like like I think other like architecture was fascinating and interesting, but there was something like this is cool, this is life, like this is going inside us.

00:13:35.442 --> 00:13:45.149
So I loved cell biology and then I also like to write, but I didn't consider myself a journalist or think about it.

00:13:45.149 --> 00:13:48.823
I just was like going along being a college student Like I.

00:13:48.823 --> 00:13:50.488
I mean, I think it's different.

00:13:50.567 --> 00:13:53.142
Kids are constantly thinking like how am I going to?

00:13:53.142 --> 00:13:54.547
What am I?

00:13:54.547 --> 00:13:58.139
How am I going to use this to then do something after college?

00:13:58.139 --> 00:14:00.144
Like I don't think I was thinking that.

00:14:00.144 --> 00:14:07.124
I was thinking, oh yeah, if I end up going to med school, I should take the pre-med requirements that are like eight classes.

00:14:07.124 --> 00:14:11.351
It wasn't that much so like I did that, but I wasn't.

00:14:11.351 --> 00:14:12.094
I didn't.

00:14:12.094 --> 00:14:15.629
I wasn't thinking like jobs and careers.

00:14:15.629 --> 00:14:18.258
I was just kind of figuring out what am I going to?

00:14:18.258 --> 00:14:23.633
I actually was like, what am I going to major in that super liberal arts that can count as a major.

00:14:24.053 --> 00:14:32.033
So when you went to med school, you did go with the intention of becoming a doctor, and that changed over those next four.

00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:34.727
No, I went on my med school.

00:14:34.727 --> 00:14:40.466
I was so confused that when I was applying to med school I still wasn't sure that it was the right route.

00:14:40.466 --> 00:14:51.312
So I thought, if I go on my medical school interviews and say I do not want to practice, I just want to write about medicine, oh not, I just, I want to write about medicine.

00:14:51.312 --> 00:15:00.943
And if they all say we're not going to waste a space on you, then I'll be like, oh okay, I needed a door to close in my face.

00:15:00.943 --> 00:15:03.208
Like now I know that that's not.

00:15:03.208 --> 00:15:05.493
Now I know that's a wrong choice.

00:15:05.493 --> 00:15:08.985
Thank you very much.

00:15:09.505 --> 00:15:14.014
And you know, a few of the schools did say like why are we wasting his face on you?

00:15:14.014 --> 00:15:37.530
And I was like I don't know, you're not going to, you're not going to accept it, don't worry about it, you're not wasting his face.

00:15:37.530 --> 00:15:44.014
But the intention was always to write very happy with someone getting an MD, phd and doing research and not practicing.

00:15:44.014 --> 00:15:46.875
I think they saw me along that line.

00:15:46.875 --> 00:15:57.317
The guy who interviewed me, who was wonderful, who died at an old age recently, shockingly was like that's a terrific idea.

00:15:57.317 --> 00:16:03.964
He had a heavy Southern accent that I'm not going to try to do now, but he basically I thought he was going to say we're not going to waste a space.

00:16:03.964 --> 00:16:08.714
And he was like we need people who understand medicine to spend time explaining it.

00:16:08.714 --> 00:16:10.052
And this was in the 80s.

00:16:10.052 --> 00:16:11.865
Wow, we need the.

00:16:11.865 --> 00:16:14.220
We need people to understand what's going on in medicine.

00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:19.571
And do you know we don't have exams at Yale and we have the fewest class hours of any medical school.

00:16:19.571 --> 00:16:21.274
Yeah, so I was sold.

00:16:21.274 --> 00:16:23.587
I was sold on the no exams.

00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:27.888
Sounds like my educational journey.

00:16:29.019 --> 00:16:37.849
So obviously you said that Yale was very open to your thought process and said what you want to do with your medical career.

00:16:37.849 --> 00:16:40.826
What about your peers at that point?

00:16:40.826 --> 00:16:41.308
How were they?

00:16:41.308 --> 00:16:51.076
Because obviously many of them have probably gone on to become doctors, practicing doctors, so many of them were probably the same way along some of the other med schools you looked at which were like why did they waste a space on you?

00:16:51.076 --> 00:16:52.761
Someone could actually be here doing something.

00:16:52.761 --> 00:16:54.346
What were your peers like?

00:16:54.666 --> 00:16:57.272
Fine, no one I don't know.

00:16:57.272 --> 00:16:59.022
I want to speak for them.

00:16:59.022 --> 00:17:06.238
Let's just put it this way that I don't I mean I, I had, I had friends, we all got along.

00:17:06.238 --> 00:17:06.960
I don't, nobody.

00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:09.006
Nobody seemed resentful.

00:17:09.006 --> 00:17:14.762
I wasn't going to take their spot in residency, so they don't have that um, but I'll say that.

00:17:14.762 --> 00:17:28.506
Um, my daughter now just started med school and she has the the same anatomy professor that I had, like over 30 years ago, and he's wonderful.

00:17:28.506 --> 00:17:35.619
And she said something to him like you know, did you, I think you also taught my mom?

00:17:35.619 --> 00:17:43.613
And he said yeah, I don't remember many medical students, but she was a real character.

00:17:43.613 --> 00:17:48.903
Yes, of course I'm not quite sure what he meant.

00:17:48.903 --> 00:17:51.548
I mean, I did really love anatomy.

00:17:51.548 --> 00:17:55.423
But yeah, I'll have to ask him next time I see him.

00:17:56.244 --> 00:18:02.164
As you got towards the end of medical school, did you ever consider changing your mind?

00:18:02.164 --> 00:18:06.563
Did you ever consider going through and becoming certified and doing a residency?

00:18:06.923 --> 00:18:10.090
There were moments, so I two twice.

00:18:10.090 --> 00:18:11.461
I was just thinking about this recently.

00:18:11.461 --> 00:18:16.586
You know it's funny because the journalism background people are like you're going to love psychiatry and all the stories.

00:18:16.586 --> 00:18:19.182
You love kids, You're going to love pediatrics.

00:18:19.182 --> 00:18:23.650
I have four children and I do love kids.

00:18:23.650 --> 00:18:25.814
I love them when they're healthy.

00:18:25.814 --> 00:18:27.281
I found.

00:18:27.281 --> 00:18:31.071
I found inpatient pediatrics killed me.

00:18:31.071 --> 00:18:33.707
My daughter might want to do something like that but it was.

00:18:33.707 --> 00:18:35.441
You know it's hard to be like.

00:18:35.441 --> 00:18:40.459
Well, the you know those five years of your life were you know you at least you got those good five years.

00:18:40.459 --> 00:18:46.333
Like I just found it very, very depressing but I was fascinated with it, but I never.

00:18:46.660 --> 00:18:48.165
I didn't think pediatrics at all.

00:18:48.165 --> 00:18:54.527
The few things I did love pathology, which my dad was a pathologist, which of course, like, oh you know, you're going to do what your dad did.

00:18:54.527 --> 00:19:07.699
But I did love that, I loved I did a pathology rotation and I just thought I remember holding a breast cancer, like not the human, the actual tumor, and I just found that fascinating.

00:19:07.699 --> 00:19:11.730
I'm like whoa, I have cancer in my hand.

00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:16.509
Wow, not spreading it, but like, so there was something fascinating about this, is it?

00:19:16.509 --> 00:19:18.247
This is the disease.

00:19:18.247 --> 00:19:21.403
I just thought it was fascinating that.

00:19:21.542 --> 00:19:38.213
And then I had a day in a rehab center that we did a rotation at or just spent a little time with in med school, and I just thought the doctors there were amazing.

00:19:38.213 --> 00:19:43.641
And so I did think for a moment because I remember saying to doctors this must be so depressing.

00:19:43.641 --> 00:19:50.462
You're dealing with people that have horrific accidents that then have to try to if they can maybe learn to walk again.

00:19:50.462 --> 00:20:09.694
And the doctors there were so wonderful and they were like cheerleaders for their patients and they said, no, it's not depressing, it's actually amazing to work with someone and get them from where they thought they're never going to walk again to at least to the next level and there's just there's this huge feeling of accomplishment.

00:20:09.694 --> 00:20:14.971
So there was moments but that was just momentary things of admiring these doctors.

00:20:15.011 --> 00:20:15.413
Not enough.

00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:21.281
Yeah, I knew I wanted to write and I knew I wanted to write during the day and I knew I wanted a family.

00:20:21.281 --> 00:20:31.553
And you know, there's all this talk of being a woman and juggling career and family and I just didn't know how two careers and family and life, like I just I didn't think I could do it all.

00:20:31.753 --> 00:20:37.071
So, yeah, so that covers the medical aspect of your academic journey.

00:20:37.071 --> 00:20:39.387
Talk to us about your writing.

00:20:39.387 --> 00:20:42.028
How did you pursue that passion?

00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:58.201
Yeah, right after college I applied both to medical school and Columbia Journalism School and I thought if I got into Columbia which I did I had had an internship at the Times and like that's what solidified that's so cool that these people are hearing news and writing it.

00:20:58.201 --> 00:21:01.749
So I went and it's only one school year, columbia.

00:21:01.749 --> 00:21:08.121
So I went there right after school year Columbia.

00:21:08.121 --> 00:21:08.923
So I went there right after.

00:21:08.923 --> 00:21:10.907
And then the decision was oh, do I go on to med school after?

00:21:10.907 --> 00:21:13.031
Do I just go out and try to, you know, write as a medical reporter?

00:21:13.031 --> 00:21:15.444
So then I did.

00:21:15.444 --> 00:21:19.133
I went right to medical school right after journalism school.

00:21:20.040 --> 00:21:22.670
Obviously you said you worked at the Times before you even went to J school.

00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:24.605
Oh, it was an internship, I mean, internship.

00:21:24.625 --> 00:21:24.967
Pardon me.

00:21:24.967 --> 00:21:29.567
So, um, what was your internship like and how did that?

00:21:29.567 --> 00:21:34.169
How did you, as you say, it made you, it made you determine that this is the career path I want.

00:21:34.169 --> 00:21:35.926
This is the career path I want to go down.

00:21:35.926 --> 00:21:37.402
So, what was that one moment?

00:21:37.402 --> 00:21:41.106
What was that one thing Was this is what I want to do.

00:21:41.247 --> 00:21:42.428
I absolutely now know this is my calling.

00:21:42.428 --> 00:21:45.291
Let me just tell you how I got this internship.

00:21:45.291 --> 00:21:58.068
I knew nothing about journalism, nothing Like I didn't realize that people apply when they're born to get an internship at the New York Times and if you wait until nursery school.

00:21:58.068 --> 00:21:58.790
That's too late.

00:21:58.911 --> 00:21:59.231
Wow.

00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.751
And you've already been editor-in-chief of, like Harvard Crimson or something.

00:22:03.751 --> 00:22:08.101
And so I applied like really late, whatever.

00:22:08.101 --> 00:22:10.425
And I got like a rejection letter.

00:22:10.425 --> 00:22:12.671
That was just like are you serious?

00:22:12.671 --> 00:22:15.821
I think that's what the rejection letter said.

00:22:15.821 --> 00:22:38.369
And then, after I got rejected, I got a letter or a call whatever one did in those days to say that the secretary in the science news office you know everyone sat in the same room and all the journalists around and the secretary sat in the middle, you know, to field all the phone calls.

00:22:38.369 --> 00:22:39.752
She's going to be away for the summer.

00:22:39.752 --> 00:22:40.882
It's a paid job.

00:22:40.882 --> 00:22:44.529
Do you want to take over for her?

00:22:44.529 --> 00:22:48.144
You'll be answering phones, but we know you're interested, so we'll.

00:22:48.144 --> 00:22:51.201
You could see what's going on and we'll fill you in on what's going on the meetings.

00:22:51.201 --> 00:22:56.683
And I did get to write a teeny bit, I think, a paragraph at the end of the summer, like a really short little news thing.

00:22:57.767 --> 00:23:08.096
So that's my internship, like that's why so wait, so was it actually an internship, but it sounds like it was a paid gig yeah, it was okay so that, because back in the 80s interns meant you like you worked for free.

00:23:08.096 --> 00:23:09.038
Right, you got coffee.

00:23:09.058 --> 00:23:15.099
It was a little paid gig I did the coffee I I like was so like you're talking about me being a good student.

00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:22.828
Like people got their mail, I think alphabetized, you know like here's your mail today.

00:23:23.230 --> 00:23:33.840
you know and like, and I was really good at filing and you know I was really good at that stuff and I'm still friendly with some of the people that were in the office then.

00:23:33.840 --> 00:23:34.702
But I was.

00:23:34.702 --> 00:23:45.942
It was wonderful and I worry about this with all this remote work, because if it were remote or anything like with other people were working remote, I would have never had this opportunity.

00:23:45.942 --> 00:23:52.034
Every big time science medical journalist was like sitting all around me.

00:23:52.034 --> 00:24:00.067
I heard them on the phone, I heard what they were doing, I heard when they came back from meetings and talking about fighting to get their pieces on the front page.

00:24:00.067 --> 00:24:03.480
You know I heard all that and I was just sitting there.

00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:05.281
But I made really good friends.

00:24:05.281 --> 00:24:09.065
They're really good mentors and I learned a ton, a ton.

00:24:09.065 --> 00:24:10.566
So then I knew I'm sold.

00:24:10.566 --> 00:24:11.846
You know, I want to.

00:24:11.846 --> 00:24:12.688
I want to do this.

00:24:12.768 --> 00:24:18.092
I want to hear medical news right away and try to make science degree one, larry altman, who I'm still in touch with.

00:24:18.112 --> 00:24:41.647
he and he he had, but he actually did a residency and he was at the cdc so studying infectious disease, and he's probably the first well, there's probably other before him but I mean he, he was one of the few, I mean he, he went to the new york times, I think in 1965 did any of them.

00:24:41.808 --> 00:24:46.105
When you told them that you were planning to go to medical medical school, did any of them say that's.

00:24:46.105 --> 00:24:47.728
Told them that you were planning to go to medical school?

00:24:47.748 --> 00:24:50.093
did any of them say that's a wrong move, smart move, anything like that, I don't remember.

00:24:50.173 --> 00:24:50.854
Or did you even tell them?

00:24:53.063 --> 00:24:53.926
Yeah, I don't think it was.

00:24:53.926 --> 00:24:57.756
You know, it's funny, I've never been asked that before.

00:24:57.756 --> 00:25:02.369
I don't think that I think I was handing them their mail and filing things.

00:25:02.369 --> 00:25:05.489
I mean they knew I was interested in writing.

00:25:05.489 --> 00:25:12.683
So they were really wonderful about telling me what they were working on, but I don't think anybody asked like what's your-?

00:25:13.025 --> 00:25:13.768
What are you doing next?

00:25:13.768 --> 00:25:15.469
Yeah, what are you doing next, kid?

00:25:16.282 --> 00:25:19.452
No, I was more interested in hearing what they were doing.

00:25:20.134 --> 00:25:23.563
Yeah, Well, and it clearly had an impact.

00:25:23.563 --> 00:25:25.465
So you go through that experience.

00:25:25.465 --> 00:25:31.875
You then go to Yale, you complete your medical degree there and you're teed up, you're ready to run.

00:25:31.875 --> 00:25:35.269
So where did you run to from medical school?

00:25:36.259 --> 00:26:00.917
Well, I got married and my husband and I decided we wanted to live overseas, live overseas, and he was able to get a job in London and everyone said to me you're not going to be able to, you know, find work because in order to be a foreign correspondent, you have to put in your due diligence, you know, at the United States and then get launched overseas.

00:26:00.917 --> 00:26:01.419
Yeah.

00:26:01.419 --> 00:26:03.923
So I was like, ah, you know.

00:26:03.923 --> 00:26:20.967
But as life happens, someone gave me the name of someone at the Associated Press and I went to the Associated Press and met someone and he said well, you know, we do have someone that's like freelance with us that covers theater and he wants to be a theater writer.

00:26:20.967 --> 00:26:26.507
So he writes about all the theater for the Associated Press out of the London Bureau and then he can freelance outside.

00:26:27.259 --> 00:26:29.945
We do not like covering medicine.

00:26:29.945 --> 00:26:36.027
They sort of feared medical stories and would wait till the New York office said why did you miss this story?

00:26:36.027 --> 00:26:37.570
And then they would quickly cover it.

00:26:37.570 --> 00:26:42.891
So they said if you want to do medical things for us and we'll see how it works out.

00:26:42.891 --> 00:26:44.824
So that's what I did.

00:26:44.824 --> 00:26:51.328
So then I got this gig at the Associated Press and it was a really wonderful office.

00:26:51.328 --> 00:26:52.913
I'm still friends with some of the people.

00:26:52.913 --> 00:27:04.328
It was just one of those lucky things that it was like a small bureau with the nicest editor that, and he made our work like with a comma here and a tweak there.

00:27:04.328 --> 00:27:07.473
He made our stuff seem so much better.

00:27:07.473 --> 00:27:10.365
We hated when he went on vacation.

00:27:10.365 --> 00:27:15.287
You know, sometimes you work in places where you're like, yay, the boss is away this week, like we all panicked.

00:27:15.287 --> 00:27:19.924
It was like mommy's away for the week and her copy's not going to be as good.

00:27:20.465 --> 00:27:21.228
Now what do we do?

00:27:21.228 --> 00:27:32.555
So it was really, and it was also stressful in the sense that you know, I got this job and I had gone to journalism school and I had written on deadline.

00:27:32.555 --> 00:27:41.472
But this was before the Internet and so the Associated Press and Reuters and UPI these wire services were the first to get the news out.

00:27:41.472 --> 00:27:48.686
So when there was a tight deadline, you had four or five hours and then it went around to the entire world.

00:27:48.686 --> 00:27:50.670
I did live in panic.

00:27:50.670 --> 00:27:54.554
I hope I didn't say a thousand, but it was really 10.

00:27:54.554 --> 00:28:08.599
I hope I didn't get the decimal point wrong accurate.

00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:10.443
But there was no like no one was also reading the science article.

00:28:10.443 --> 00:28:27.770
So I would, I would hand my copy in and then I would wake up really early the next morning to go the newsstand to buy like the major national newspapers in London to make sure that my story was like just saying, like it wasn't like this like I, my big fear would be like this drug.

00:28:28.311 --> 00:28:29.012
You know the.

00:28:29.012 --> 00:28:31.525
You know I would write this drug really works.

00:28:31.525 --> 00:28:31.925
I didn't.

00:28:31.925 --> 00:28:46.962
And then I'd go to the newspaper and everybody else would be like danger in this drug and I'd be like wait so it never happened, I never got anything completely backwards and I and I was actually good with the decimal points.

00:28:46.962 --> 00:28:48.084
I think I was so worried.

00:28:48.084 --> 00:28:49.806
I checked things a million times.

00:28:49.806 --> 00:29:01.517
But it's great, great practice to not be oh, this word or that word, which verb, and just write clearly and quickly and get it out there.

00:29:01.517 --> 00:29:01.957
Yeah.

00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:09.565
Yeah, I'm so glad you just talked about the precision that you have to have there.

00:29:09.565 --> 00:29:12.933
First of all, that sounds like a dream gig for you, specifically, you know, when you go overseas.

00:29:12.933 --> 00:29:15.385
I mean that's amazing that that gig happened for you.

00:29:15.385 --> 00:29:21.728
It sounds like the self starting, the self motivation in you is kind of what's driving your whole career at this point.

00:29:21.728 --> 00:29:24.582
Are you deciding what you're writing on?

00:29:24.582 --> 00:29:27.008
Like how is it working, like with?

00:29:27.008 --> 00:29:28.772
I need to know this answer.

00:29:28.772 --> 00:29:35.911
This is something that's a void in the medical world and I need to figure it out, and I guess that lends to that job and throughout your career.

00:29:35.911 --> 00:29:37.523
Like, how are you figuring out?

00:29:37.523 --> 00:29:42.868
This is something I'm fascinated with, so I'll do all the research and lay it out for the world.

00:29:42.868 --> 00:29:45.147
Or there's a real void here.

00:29:45.147 --> 00:29:46.906
We have to fix this void medically.

00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:48.944
Yeah, I mean I think it works both ways.

00:29:48.944 --> 00:30:05.492
I think you know when I wasn't working on books or what I tell my students editors are always looking for ideas, and so it's great to be digging, and whether that's talking to experts, reading valid, but maybe like more obscure journals.

00:30:05.492 --> 00:30:11.538
You know there's like the New England Journal of Medicine and JAMA and things, but then there's also each specialty has their journal.

00:30:11.538 --> 00:30:14.204
I wouldn't call them obscure, but they're focused on a specialty.

00:30:14.204 --> 00:30:21.269
So when I was younger I mean I'm still young, I'm only in my sixties, but like when I was Exactly.

00:30:22.259 --> 00:30:26.653
When I was a little younger, like thirties like yesterday, I would For all of us.

00:30:26.653 --> 00:30:27.978
When I was a little younger, like 30s, like yesterday.

00:30:27.998 --> 00:30:28.137
I would.

00:30:28.137 --> 00:30:28.700
I would For all of us, yeah.

00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:40.669
I would send an editor a bunch of story ideas and, honestly, like oftentimes they would be like no, no, no, no, but they would see that I was hungry to work.

00:30:40.669 --> 00:30:50.871
And then sometimes they would say, well, but we are looking for someone to write about X, and sometimes I like that's kind of not what I'm interested in writing.

00:30:50.871 --> 00:31:00.933
But you know what you take, what you can do, and I also found that I can't even like usually you get interested in it, or at least I do.

00:31:00.933 --> 00:31:05.311
There's something interesting in every story, or you find it.

00:31:05.311 --> 00:31:14.467
So someone will be like we need someone to write about whatever disease or whatever medical thing is going on, and so I'm like, oh gosh, that's so not of my interest.

00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:16.473
But it is like I don't know.

00:31:16.473 --> 00:31:19.243
You start talking to people and you're like, wow, this really is fascinating.

00:31:19.243 --> 00:31:26.929
Or it gets to the point where, well, how do I convince an audience member like how this is exceeding?

00:31:26.929 --> 00:31:30.425
Because I can relate, because I didn't think so, I didn't want to be writing this story.

00:31:30.425 --> 00:31:32.567
So some of it's that.

00:31:32.567 --> 00:31:50.727
But oftentimes it is both hearing people you know talking about their fears or what they don't know, or hearing something in medicine that I think people don't have the right information about, and trying to get a story that sets things straight.

00:31:50.727 --> 00:31:52.231
So it kind of goes both ways.

00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:56.808
So when you're in London, I guess how long were you there?

00:31:56.808 --> 00:32:01.707
And as we all did our homework and did our research, we know that you didn't just write for the AP.

00:32:01.707 --> 00:32:05.142
You added a lot of other projects and roles to that.

00:32:05.142 --> 00:32:11.192
So tell us about the momentum building and how your career really started to grow for you.

00:32:11.333 --> 00:32:20.173
Yeah, so we were in London about six years so I freelanced to other newspapers there and magazines.

00:32:20.173 --> 00:32:22.086
There were more magazines then.

00:32:22.086 --> 00:32:27.820
It was fascinating just seeing the difference between working with American editors versus British.

00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:42.186
And so I freelanced there and I also was the bureau chief or the sole person I was chief of myself of a publication called Physicians Weekly.

00:32:42.186 --> 00:32:43.387
That, no, I don't think it exists anymore.

00:32:43.387 --> 00:32:45.069
That, no, I don't think it exists anymore.

00:32:45.069 --> 00:32:49.195
My editor there was amazing and so that was writing.

00:32:49.195 --> 00:32:55.940
It was.

00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:57.222
It went out to doctors so it was writing medicine for doctors.

00:32:57.242 --> 00:33:03.153
And the other thing I always tell aspiring writers or journalists like, the one thing you really want is a good editor.

00:33:03.153 --> 00:33:10.515
You know, that's to me that's been more important than the publication almost, and who's going to be reading it?

00:33:10.515 --> 00:33:17.896
It's wonderful to have an editor that works with you, so that's a learning process and makes your writing better.

00:33:17.896 --> 00:33:23.770
So Physicians Weekly was like a mentor to me the editor there and he was wonderful.

00:33:23.770 --> 00:33:29.344
So that helped a lot the editor there and he was wonderful, so that helped a lot.

00:33:29.344 --> 00:33:32.875
Now my book editor has been like a wonderful mentor to me to help, you know, hone my ideas and my books.

00:33:32.875 --> 00:33:36.825
So, yeah, I think I, I, I lean on all those people.

00:33:37.326 --> 00:33:38.269
So I have two questions.

00:33:38.269 --> 00:33:41.065
The first one will be have you ever had a full-time gig?

00:33:41.065 --> 00:33:44.198
Cause it seems like your entire career has been kind of freelancing.

00:33:44.198 --> 00:33:45.702
To do that is incredible.

00:33:45.702 --> 00:33:48.632
To do that Remarkable's absolutely remarkable.

00:33:48.632 --> 00:33:52.886
To make a, to make your livelihood off of essentially just freelancing your entire career.

00:33:52.886 --> 00:33:55.258
And then two what makes a great editor?

00:33:55.278 --> 00:33:55.377
great.

00:33:55.377 --> 00:33:56.040
There's two different things.

00:33:56.040 --> 00:33:59.548
I mean, I've had my last book, had an amazing copy editor.

00:33:59.548 --> 00:34:00.711
I'm so indebted she.

00:34:00.711 --> 00:34:07.030
She found like every cross t that wasn't crossed and you know, which was wonderful.

00:34:07.951 --> 00:34:24.427
I think two things to be able to see the holes in your story, you know, to see something fresh and and to know you and to say I think you can go deeper, I think you can make this point sharper.

00:34:24.427 --> 00:34:25.268
Make this point sharper.

00:34:25.268 --> 00:34:38.224
And I also, I've always worked with editors and well, I guess think so that haven't rewritten my stuff but have pushed me.

00:34:38.224 --> 00:34:41.456
You know, I've seen the weaknesses and the faults and said I think you can hone this better or this doesn't make sense.

00:34:41.456 --> 00:34:47.192
So then it's more of a learning curve versus handing someone something in and having them rewrite it.

00:34:47.192 --> 00:34:54.632
So yeah, so I guess that's what, that's what helps, and I try to do that in my teaching.

00:34:54.632 --> 00:34:57.007
I guess I consider myself more of an editor.

00:34:57.007 --> 00:35:07.052
Well, I am a teacher but like I edit their things and I and it's hard I try to edit my students in a way that I push them to come up with this solution.

00:35:08.081 --> 00:35:11.811
I think any great editor is also a teacher, even in the real world, so to speak.

00:35:11.831 --> 00:35:12.492
Yeah, exactly.

00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:15.568
We'll get back on the journey part in a second.

00:35:15.568 --> 00:35:18.905
But while we're here, talk about the pressure of getting it right.

00:35:18.905 --> 00:35:23.083
I can't imagine the amount of research that you have to do to write in the medical field.

00:35:23.083 --> 00:35:24.827
It is very precise.

00:35:24.827 --> 00:35:28.202
Have you ever been worried about getting it wrong, like truly wrong?

00:35:28.202 --> 00:35:32.952
I mean that has to be a lot of pressure for you to take those facts.

00:35:32.952 --> 00:35:41.682
You know this is not a fiction, this is nonfiction writing and you have to be precise and correct and organized and thorough.

00:35:41.682 --> 00:35:44.628
So talk to me a little bit about that pressure while we're here.

00:35:45.108 --> 00:35:47.753
Oh, I live in that panic all the time.

00:35:47.753 --> 00:35:51.766
But let me add to this.

00:35:51.766 --> 00:35:54.967
I'll just add to those stresses.

00:35:55.099 --> 00:36:00.871
There's the stress of getting it right and I do have then my sources that I'll call back and read.

00:36:00.871 --> 00:36:11.079
And now that I've been doing it for so long, there's people I trust that I can say, hey, this is what I think, am I getting this right, especially if I'm not on the tightest deadline.

00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:36.349
But I want to add that it's not in addition to the data and the specifics to feel that I've said something that'll humiliate them or that misrepresents them, or that I use a term that they might find offensive.

00:36:36.349 --> 00:36:46.061
So I know that a lot of times in journalism there's on the record and off the record, and if they forgot to say off the record, you could play gotcha.

00:36:46.202 --> 00:37:01.940
And I just kind of feel all those rules go down the tubes when I'm talking to someone who has been ill and they are giving me details of their illness, and there are some journalists that like to say, oh, we're giving them a voice.

00:37:01.940 --> 00:37:08.226
Yeah, maybe, but we're also exploiting their story so that our work looks better.

00:37:08.226 --> 00:37:20.233
You have someone give you all these intimate details and what went through and what happened and how they've suffered and how they've survived, and we are happy because that makes us look better.

00:37:20.233 --> 00:37:21.193
We got it.

00:37:21.193 --> 00:37:24.677
We got them to talk to us, we got them to open up.

00:37:24.677 --> 00:37:29.900
My byline gets on the story, them to talk to us.

00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:31.643
We got them to open up my byline gets on the story.

00:37:31.664 --> 00:37:34.590
So I feel, because I've exploited their story, maybe, yes, they'll feel happy for getting a voice.

00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:45.244
I always read back exactly how it's going to say how they're going to sound, and give them the opportunity to say, oh right, I did tell you that, but you know what?

00:37:45.244 --> 00:37:48.983
Actually, no, can you leave that part out?

00:37:48.983 --> 00:37:52.789
And you know, and then I will, and then I will.

00:37:52.789 --> 00:37:58.472
So I'll add that to the worry that I hope that someone doesn't, and it's never happened.

00:37:58.472 --> 00:38:20.882
But I worry I'll always worry about that that someone will say, oh, I hate that word, or you referred to me as having a certain disease, but I like to say it's with that syndrome, even little words can make someone feel like that their identity has been blurred or something.

00:38:21.123 --> 00:38:21.342
Yeah.

00:38:22.063 --> 00:38:29.893
So, randy, as we come back to your journey and look at you know your accomplishments to date.

00:38:29.893 --> 00:38:32.396
In terms of where we are, I guess we're in London.

00:38:32.396 --> 00:38:34.768
You've been writing for a while.

00:38:34.768 --> 00:38:36.166
You're there for six years.

00:38:36.166 --> 00:38:38.286
Eventually, you come back.

00:38:38.286 --> 00:38:43.387
I'm aware that you have four wonderful children, who are all incredibly accomplished people.

00:38:43.387 --> 00:38:54.931
What was that like for you in terms of having a career, having a dream, having a passion, having a vision and having four children at the same time?

00:38:54.931 --> 00:38:56.983
And did you learn from that experience?

00:38:56.983 --> 00:39:00.793
Did going through motherhood in any way impact your writing?

00:39:00.793 --> 00:39:03.003
Like, I'm just kind of curious about that dynamic.

00:39:03.324 --> 00:39:03.985
Yeah, I mean.

00:39:03.985 --> 00:39:43.027
So my son, my first son, was born in London and then I was pregnant with twins when we moved back here and that did affect my career choices because I was looking around to see if I could land like a full-time newsroom gig and then I realized that there's no such thing as working nine to five in a newsroom then and I would have two babies and a two-year-old and or two and a half and like I just couldn't see if there was like a major, great news story and they needed a staffer to go off for a week.

00:39:43.027 --> 00:39:47.190
I just didn't want to be that person with three little kids.

00:39:47.190 --> 00:39:51.190
So I came back knowing that okay, I'll freelance.

00:39:52.373 --> 00:40:03.967
And then one of my professors from med school, who was wonderful, he did a sabbatical in London and it's just interesting when you look back on decisions you make because they just seem different and whatever.

00:40:03.967 --> 00:40:13.349
But he had said to me because they just seem different and whatever, but he had said to me he was a pediatrician at Yale and wonderful.

00:40:13.349 --> 00:40:29.025
And so he said to me when I was moving back he offered me the opportunity to go on the wards and one or two days a week and just shadow and be on the wards with the pediatricians and if, at the end of the year, I thought, wow, you know what.

00:40:29.025 --> 00:40:29.927
I changed my mind.

00:40:29.927 --> 00:40:30.849
I could do this.

00:40:31.210 --> 00:40:31.672
Oh, wow.

00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:34.427
Yeah, then he would let me join the program.

00:40:34.427 --> 00:40:40.541
And he said, and if not, no hard feelings, it would just be an interesting experience for your writing.

00:40:40.541 --> 00:40:44.764
But you know, which sounds wonderful and doable.

00:40:44.764 --> 00:41:04.577
But at that moment I was just moving back to the States and my son, as boys tend to be, was really attached to me and he was two and a half and you know, america then was a foreign country to him, back and forth to yell all the time and it feels so close.

00:41:04.577 --> 00:41:23.666
But at the time I thought, you know, I liked picking him up from school and we hung out after nursery school and I just couldn't see myself being like, oh, I'll be home in three and a half hours, so yeah, so I didn't do it, so I just couldn't leave my son then.

00:41:23.666 --> 00:41:31.510
And so, yeah, like it seems like nothing now, it would have been two days a week, but at the moment I was just like I don't think so, so I didn't.

00:41:32.603 --> 00:41:33.967
So you turned your attention to family.

00:41:34.228 --> 00:41:34.610
Yeah.

00:41:34.981 --> 00:41:37.168
And are you freelance writing at that point?

00:41:37.168 --> 00:41:38.353
Are you writing at all?

00:41:38.353 --> 00:41:39.076
What does that look like?

00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:42.686
And I was gathering material for my first book.

00:41:42.686 --> 00:41:49.862
I wasn't getting as much accomplished as I wanted to, because those twin babies take up a lot of time.

00:41:49.862 --> 00:41:53.248
Yes, I was trying to freelance as much as I could.

00:41:53.248 --> 00:42:01.833
I was working on my book as much as I could, but I was constantly thinking I'm not getting as much done as I should.

00:42:01.833 --> 00:42:20.871
Now I'm curious about the book.

00:42:20.871 --> 00:42:21.211
What was the?

00:42:21.231 --> 00:42:21.592
inspiration.

00:42:21.592 --> 00:42:25.094
What was the title and how long did it take you to actually write that first book title ever.

00:42:26.014 --> 00:42:33.329
Yeah, and that book came around not because of my pregnancies and not because of childbirth or even an interest in OBGYN.

00:42:33.329 --> 00:42:44.134
It actually came about because when I first started reporting on medicine right after medical school I'm always so like naive plus optimistic, I think.

00:42:44.134 --> 00:42:48.231
So I thought, ok, I'm going to get these breaking news stories.

00:42:48.231 --> 00:42:51.447
It's going to say here's a new study that shows X.

00:42:51.447 --> 00:43:00.943
I'm going to interview experts, I'm going to publish this story, and then doctors are going to be like thank you for this new information based on really good data.

00:43:00.943 --> 00:43:04.532
And now I'm going to change what I do when I go to work tomorrow.

00:43:04.532 --> 00:43:10.123
And then I was like blown away by you know doctors who I thought were old.

00:43:10.123 --> 00:43:11.266
They were probably 45.

00:43:11.266 --> 00:43:17.755
I was blown away by you know doctors saying, wow, really great study that makes so much sense.

00:43:17.755 --> 00:43:20.206
Oh, are you going to incorporate this into your practice?

00:43:20.206 --> 00:43:22.356
Well, not really, cause you know I've been doing.

00:43:22.396 --> 00:43:30.708
I've been practicing medicine for 20 years and and so so I then got really fascinated with like then, how did doctors change their minds?

00:43:30.708 --> 00:43:33.201
You know like what I mean.

00:43:33.201 --> 00:43:37.222
If science isn't gonna make you change your mind, like what is?

00:43:37.222 --> 00:43:44.199
So I got very interested in decision-making of doctors and then doctor-patient relationships.

00:43:44.199 --> 00:44:10.152
I was just like kind of reading in history of medicine and gathering information, and then I gravitated to OBGYN because I found that that was the most fascinating relationship between doctors and patients, because you can be the smartest person in the world but you're in pain or you have a horrible rare disease and at some point you're just going to say to your expert doctor fine, Okay, sure, do it.

00:44:10.701 --> 00:44:27.027
You're a healthy woman who wants to get pregnant or planning getting pregnant, and you choose a doctor and the doctor's like you know, this is the way I see childbirth and pregnancy and you're like well, I don't, so I'm going to go to someone else, or no, I'm not going to go to someone else, but here's how we're going to talk about this.

00:44:27.027 --> 00:44:47.853
So I was very interested in that dynamic, especially in pregnancy, because you can actually get pregnant without going to a doctor, shockingly, and you can even give birth without going to the you know, smartest OBGYN in the world.

00:44:47.853 --> 00:44:52.793
So I was really interested in that relationship.

00:44:53.280 --> 00:45:05.012
When did women become such control freaks, saying like I'm just going to eat this and my baby will be perfect, or I'm just going to do that, and then looking at the whole business of fertility and what's going on.

00:45:05.012 --> 00:45:17.266
So that's how I gravitated, and so I just started reading a ton of history books and books that were written way back when, and talking to women and archives and collecting information.

00:45:17.266 --> 00:45:27.853
And then at a certain point, I think my husband was like you're going to just collect information forever, or you're going to focus this on a book proposal and get it out to an agent?

00:45:28.681 --> 00:45:38.773
So and then I did yeah, At what point did you begin your teaching career and how do you, how do you relay this passion that you have for your writing, for medicine, for science?

00:45:38.773 --> 00:45:40.985
How do you relay that to your, to your students?

00:45:41.166 --> 00:45:44.280
Well, I started teaching I have to look at my resume.

00:45:44.280 --> 00:46:06.807
I don't know 10 or 15 years ago, I don't know something like that First I was I co-taught a class with a woman at CUNY Journalism School who's wonderful, and I learned a ton from her Emily Labor Warren, who runs the science writing at CUNY, and she's amazing, and I was so fortunate that she asked me to co-teach something with her and I learned a ton.

00:46:06.807 --> 00:46:10.170
And then I taught.

00:46:10.170 --> 00:46:22.413
I served as a thesis advisor at Columbia Journalism School Now I teach profile writing there and then I taught this course that I developed the syllabus with another person, kathy Shufro, who's also interested in medical writing.

00:46:22.413 --> 00:46:28.262
We developed a syllabus together at Yale and I think I hope I get my passion across to my students.

00:46:28.262 --> 00:46:29.547
They have to write a lot.

00:46:29.547 --> 00:46:38.552
They know that I obsessively go through all their papers so for better or worse, they're seeing that I care about every comma they put down.

00:46:39.161 --> 00:46:40.306
So you got into teaching.

00:46:40.306 --> 00:46:48.128
I looked at your LinkedIn profile as you were giving your last answer so, from what I can tell, it began in 2009, about 15 years ago.

00:46:48.128 --> 00:47:02.199
So you know, as you're developing that skill set, you know how scary is it to go into a classroom for the first time and how do you get good Like, how do you master?

00:47:04.885 --> 00:47:05.525
those skills.

00:47:05.525 --> 00:47:15.353
Yeah, I'm constantly thinking how could this class have gone better, trying to keep students not bored, hoping that they did the reading.

00:47:15.353 --> 00:47:47.925
Yeah, I'm just constantly tweaking it and I think I've just learned through the years that students really mostly want you to care about them and care about educating them, and I do feel that they're paying a lot of money or someone's paying money for them or somehow they earned a scholarship and so I feel like I'm working for them and I want them to come out of the class and then forever and ever in their life, hear my nagging.

00:47:47.945 --> 00:47:59.231
Ever in their life, hear my nagging voice in their head when they I will hear from students years later saying we had to write this piece.

00:47:59.231 --> 00:48:07.295
I'm in medical school or we had to do this and I could hear you saying like no, you don't need all those adverbs, that's too long, that you can simplify that.

00:48:07.295 --> 00:48:10.036
So I'm like that's don't need all those adverbs, that's too long, you can simplify that.

00:48:10.036 --> 00:48:10.596
So I'm like that's.

00:48:10.596 --> 00:48:11.677
That's what I want to hear.

00:48:11.677 --> 00:48:14.097
I want my nagging voice to be in your head.

00:48:19.739 --> 00:48:20.822
What do you get the most gratification from?

00:48:20.822 --> 00:48:21.242
Is it the teaching?

00:48:21.242 --> 00:48:22.005
Is it that initial reward?

00:48:22.005 --> 00:48:23.487
Is it writing a book, seeing it be successful Lectures?

00:48:23.487 --> 00:48:25.913
Where do you get your most fulfillment?

00:48:26.094 --> 00:48:35.202
Well, I would say, after I've written something that I think, after many rewrites, I think I've like, oh, that's what I wanted to get across.

00:48:35.202 --> 00:48:36.989
So that's a great feeling.

00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:41.541
I would say when I leave a classroom, you know, my husband always says, like, how did it go today?

00:48:41.541 --> 00:48:42.920
I'm like, I don't know.

00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:46.143
I always say that I don't know, I think it went okay, I don't know.

00:48:46.143 --> 00:48:56.106
So I don't think I can leave a classroom and be like, wow, that was great, because I'm always thinking so-and-so looked a little bored, did he not get sleep year?

00:48:56.106 --> 00:49:01.929
Or I spoke to a student's mother actually, because in a circuitous way we got connected and she was my student, not the mother.

00:49:02.369 --> 00:49:31.166
The daughter was my student a few years ago and the mother said we're so thrilled that you were the one that actually encouraged our daughter to write.

00:49:31.166 --> 00:49:33.813
She never thought about it and she's actually gotten some, you know, published.

00:49:33.813 --> 00:49:36.106
She's been published and I didn't realize that.

00:49:36.106 --> 00:49:37.148
So you know I love it.

00:49:37.148 --> 00:49:41.128
So it's always sort of years later we're all here, things like that.

00:49:41.128 --> 00:49:41.990
So I guess that too.

00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:42.900
All right.

00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:49.072
So before I ask you whether you were an advocate for patients or an advocate for medicine, you were an advocate, and you said you were an advocate, an advocate for the truth.

00:49:49.072 --> 00:49:52.447
So now do you consider yourself a teacher or a writer?

00:49:52.688 --> 00:49:53.391
I think both.

00:49:53.391 --> 00:49:57.471
But I'm going to add I'm an advocate for my students Like I.

00:49:57.471 --> 00:50:01.081
You know they're applying for something and they did well in my class.

00:50:01.081 --> 00:50:03.065
You know, or they're not or they're just like.

00:50:03.065 --> 00:50:07.333
I will like write them the best letter of reference or figure out who I know.

00:50:07.333 --> 00:50:11.670
Like I feel, like like I will be, you know, I don't.

00:50:11.670 --> 00:50:16.010
I feel like this how could they not hire my former student?

00:50:16.010 --> 00:50:19.208
So I feel very attached.

00:50:19.208 --> 00:50:25.387
Once you're in my class, you're like stuck in my web and I feel very.

00:50:25.387 --> 00:50:27.726
I don't know, I just feel possessive.

00:50:27.746 --> 00:50:37.282
You feel very possessive, that they're better than other people and they deserve that job and I want to push to make sure that they can get ahead.

00:50:37.282 --> 00:50:44.003
And nothing makes me more excited than I mean other than my own kids, like hearing from a student their successes.

00:50:44.003 --> 00:51:01.592
One of my students went off to get a PhD and invited me to hear you know when they do their oral presentation and and just to see students that might've been nervous or freshmen or sophomore and they were in my class and now they're like practicing medicine or in their confident and, yeah, I just love that.

00:51:01.592 --> 00:51:02.420
I just love that.

00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:06.326
While we're on this subject, I do want to get your point of view on something.

00:51:06.326 --> 00:51:09.731
So the times are changing very quickly.

00:51:09.731 --> 00:51:11.934
You've been teaching for a long time.

00:51:11.934 --> 00:51:24.784
At this point, we've now established it's been about 15 years and as AI begins to creep its way in and knowing that you are teaching journalism, nice example.

00:51:25.246 --> 00:51:26.969
Look at her face.

00:51:26.969 --> 00:51:29.193
We just lost our guest, but you know.

00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:30.742
I'm curious.

00:51:30.742 --> 00:51:34.016
I mean, this is something that you'd certainly need to be aware of.

00:51:34.016 --> 00:51:38.268
This is something that you certainly need to address, I'm assuming, with your students.

00:51:38.268 --> 00:51:44.867
How do you teach your kids to accept work around deal with Like?

00:51:44.867 --> 00:51:48.702
What is your approach to AI, particularly when it comes to writing and journalism?

00:51:48.862 --> 00:51:51.971
Yeah, I'm actually taking notes here because I have to remember that.

00:51:51.971 --> 00:51:56.447
I want to talk about it in my class on Monday, now that you've said that.

00:51:56.447 --> 00:52:09.422
What I did in my Columbia class last semester this isn't my brilliant idea, it's actually a math professor at Berkeley told me he did this and I thought, oh, I'm going to do this too.

00:52:09.422 --> 00:52:20.949
So he assigned his upper level math students a math whatever, whatever upper level math student people do.

00:52:20.949 --> 00:52:27.231
And then he said I want you to do it, and then I also want you to feed it to AI.

00:52:27.231 --> 00:52:30.407
You know chat GPT and see how they did it and let's compare.

00:52:30.407 --> 00:52:31.650
You know not.

00:52:31.650 --> 00:52:47.371
And so then what I did for my students they had a simple little assignment and I said I want you to do it, and then I want you to feed it into chat GPT or one of the AI things and hand them both in and let's compare and what we got a kick out of.

00:52:47.592 --> 00:52:56.090
You know, the chat GPT was so much more cliched and you know, and you could see that it was so formulaic in a bad way.

00:52:56.090 --> 00:53:00.731
And, yes, I know you could say, well, wait five years and it's not going to sound that way.

00:53:00.731 --> 00:53:04.369
I'm a really low tech human.

00:53:04.369 --> 00:53:06.527
I don't know how to turn my television on.

00:53:06.527 --> 00:53:07.670
I don't know how to turn my television on.

00:53:07.670 --> 00:53:11.048
I don't know how to do things If it's more than an on-off switch, I don't know how to do it.

00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:15.871
The whole thing of AI writing stories freaks me out.

00:53:15.871 --> 00:53:25.152
What worries me and I don't think I'm going to be able to accomplish this, at least single-handedly is and I haven't.

00:53:25.152 --> 00:53:49.913
I just put it down to remind my students this semester because I didn't yet, but my students last semester, like I think that there's the part of the joy and frustration of writing is that blank page and that act of creation that goes from like blank page to actually coming up with an idea and and in life.

00:53:49.913 --> 00:53:55.842
That's just this wonderful feeling of oh my God, like I actually had those thoughts in my head, like I framed this.

00:53:55.842 --> 00:53:56.644
That's kind of cool.

00:53:56.644 --> 00:53:58.811
It was frustrating, but then you created something.

00:53:59.641 --> 00:54:01.865
What about AI incorporating into modern medicine?

00:54:01.865 --> 00:54:09.284
I mean, we just did a story recently about how pretty soon you will not when you get a, when you have an eye doctor's appointment.

00:54:09.284 --> 00:54:19.123
It will be rare for you to actually speak to an eye doctor, because the AI is much better at diagnosing your problem, and more accurately, so are we moving?

00:54:19.123 --> 00:54:19.425
So?

00:54:19.425 --> 00:54:22.577
Is that something you see, or are you worried about that in modern medicine as well?

00:54:22.597 --> 00:54:23.460
Yeah, and it's funny.

00:54:23.460 --> 00:54:27.505
Okay, my dad, may he rest in peace.

00:54:27.505 --> 00:54:31.969
You know, like this I would be curious what he was thinking now.

00:54:31.969 --> 00:54:47.177
But even in like the 80s or 90s, whatever technology was coming into pathology, he was and this is sort of brainwashed me into it takes a human like you know he was very much like you have to know their whole disease and you have to know everything.

00:54:47.177 --> 00:54:53.481
And there's good pathologists and there's lousy ones and you don't just want and machines can't take over.

00:54:53.481 --> 00:55:03.115
Well, you know, I think, right, there are some technologies that the machine can see things better.

00:55:03.115 --> 00:55:05.166
I think we're going to need humans too.

00:55:06.088 --> 00:55:14.219
And I just heard recently and I don't know her name because I can't remember it, but somebody in medicine who studies AI.

00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:35.349
So this is not my thought, it's her thought that on the positive side, what could happen is if we have AI better at diagnosing certain things, then the doctor's role will free up doctors to be able to have the conversations and explain what's going on.

00:55:35.349 --> 00:55:42.034
You know, there's so many doctors saying like I'm staring at electronic medical record, I'm doing this, I can't, I don't have that much time.

00:55:42.034 --> 00:55:52.199
So she was saying maybe this will provide doctors with the time to say here's what this machine just diagnosed.

00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:53.907
Here's what this machine is seeing.

00:55:53.907 --> 00:56:14.219
Let me sit down and explain this to you and go over what it means, because just having I mean I think some people have already experienced this that if you've gone to the doctor and you get your electronic medical records results back before the doctor can read it to you like you don't know what all these lab results mean.

00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:25.485
So you're going to need a human to explain it, because we're not a bunch of data, we're humans, where certain data points mean certain things.

00:56:25.485 --> 00:56:26.666
So we're going to need that.

00:56:26.867 --> 00:56:38.800
But but I heard an interesting anecdote of someone said he didn't even tell me what it was, but he had some medical issue and he couldn't figure out pain in his arm or whatever it was.

00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:49.217
And he was going to all these different specialists and he was a doctor, he had access to all these great specialists and everybody was seeing his illness from their own specialty and he was getting frustrated.

00:56:49.217 --> 00:56:53.748
He fed it into chat, gpt or whatever computer thing.

00:56:53.748 --> 00:56:55.393
And here's what he said.

00:56:55.393 --> 00:57:03.514
I never felt so listened to until that's the frightening part of it.

00:57:03.574 --> 00:57:23.552
Right, that's the frightening part listened to every single part of your story and then analyzed and actually gave him the best feedback, versus the orthopedic surgeon just was paying attention to one slice and the neurologist paying attention to another slice and dismissed all the other stuff.

00:57:23.552 --> 00:57:26.378
So yeah, it's weird.

00:57:27.164 --> 00:57:31.157
Getting back to your career journey a little bit, I have to ask this question.

00:57:31.157 --> 00:57:38.295
I encourage you to be as vague as you want to be, but there's people out there listening right now who really want to know.

00:57:38.295 --> 00:57:42.956
You found this very specific niche and carved it out.

00:57:42.956 --> 00:57:50.382
You're a specialist in a very tight window and that's important because it enables you to be who you are.

00:57:50.382 --> 00:57:52.246
Is it lucrative or do you?

00:57:52.246 --> 00:57:58.402
Have to teach and write and do all these things to piece it together?

00:57:58.402 --> 00:57:59.706
Or is it just because you love it?

00:57:59.748 --> 00:58:00.530
because I love it.

00:58:00.530 --> 00:58:02.356
It's not lucrative at all.

00:58:02.356 --> 00:58:12.833
There was a great article uh, I keep forgetting the names, but if someone knew there was a great article in the New York Times about why we should pay teachers a lot more.

00:58:12.833 --> 00:58:16.215
It was written so well.

00:58:16.215 --> 00:58:20.054
No, it's not lucrative at all.

00:58:20.054 --> 00:58:23.494
I love what I do, but, yeah, you don't.

00:58:23.494 --> 00:58:32.826
And actually, for freelance writing, a lot of the fees that we get it's something that we writers bitch about all the time.

00:58:32.826 --> 00:58:39.663
Um, I think the fees are about the same as they were in 1990, wow, lower.

00:58:39.782 --> 00:58:41.085
That's because people are like.

00:58:41.085 --> 00:58:52.797
People want you to write for free also, um, which was unheard of in the 90s, but now it's like well, we have this new website, we have this new blog, yeah so the question then becomes so.

00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:53.920
So how do you pour?

00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:55.384
How do you relay that to your kids?

00:58:55.384 --> 00:58:57.728
Obviously, the media landscape has changed right?

00:58:57.728 --> 00:59:02.586
So newsrooms are taken to the bone in many senses and we see what happens, that.

00:59:02.586 --> 00:59:04.532
We've seen what's happened with a number of large papers.

00:59:04.532 --> 00:59:06.728
They've shut down, they've cut staff.

00:59:06.728 --> 00:59:11.659
I mean recently what vice Vice News is going to fire essentially their entire staff and shut down.

00:59:11.659 --> 00:59:16.396
A company that was once valued at like $5 billion now is like essentially worth nothing.

00:59:16.396 --> 00:59:18.692
What do you tell your kids now about the nature of the business?

00:59:19.094 --> 00:59:19.454
It's funny.

00:59:19.454 --> 00:59:23.416
I was talking to my journalism students last semester.

00:59:23.416 --> 00:59:28.541
I mean, as I told you, I'm terrible about predicting the future.

00:59:28.541 --> 00:59:30.347
As I told you, I'm terrible about predicting the future.

00:59:30.347 --> 00:59:35.094
I do think that we will always need news.

00:59:35.094 --> 00:59:37.898
We will always need accuracy.

00:59:37.898 --> 00:59:43.485
The jobs may not be in print newspapers, that I don't think so.

00:59:43.485 --> 00:59:59.496
Somehow people will be getting their news, whether it's in a podcast or whether it's video, or whether it's online or on their watch God forbid.

00:59:59.496 --> 01:00:27.507
Hopefully we will find ways, because people, I do think, will push for this, that they're going to want more than a one-liner, that they're going to want more than a one liner, that they're going to want more than a breaking news that they can like, read in little like snippets on their phone, yeah, so I do believe people want to know things and yeah, and somehow it'll get funded and somehow there will be advertising for it.

01:00:27.628 --> 01:00:31.014
You are a lot less cynical than I am in that sense.

01:00:31.014 --> 01:00:34.340
I just don't think that people want to learn as much as they used to.

01:00:34.340 --> 01:00:47.492
I think you know when you and I are not the same age there's a little bit of difference between us, but we came up in the same ways that you know, where newsrooms were big, there were a lot of people in them and there were people who wanted to learn stuff.

01:00:47.492 --> 01:00:50.934
I think now we just live in an age where there's a lot of echo chambering.

01:00:51.094 --> 01:00:56.260
And we should point out that Tushar works in the CBS newsroom, so he does know what he's talking about.

01:00:57.199 --> 01:00:59.641
No, I know, I know, I know.

01:01:02.367 --> 01:01:03.188
I know you're right.

01:01:03.188 --> 01:01:04.230
I don't want to be right.

01:01:04.230 --> 01:01:05.472
I'm not a futurist either.

01:01:05.472 --> 01:01:06.472
I don't want to be right.

01:01:06.472 --> 01:01:07.355
Don't tell me I'm right.

01:01:07.715 --> 01:01:09.036
All right, all right, let's have some fun.

01:01:09.036 --> 01:01:11.300
You seem like you're great at parties, randy.

01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:12.722
I'm convinced of that and I'm good at throwing them.

01:01:12.722 --> 01:01:13.543
I'm good at throwing them.

01:01:13.543 --> 01:01:14.085
Yes, she is.

01:01:14.085 --> 01:01:15.489
I was at one a few weeks ago.

01:01:15.489 --> 01:01:16.293
It was fantastic.

01:01:16.293 --> 01:01:17.686
Honestly, can I?

01:01:17.706 --> 01:01:24.148
just say that I hate the word, I hate that overused like what's your superpower?

01:01:24.148 --> 01:01:27.331
I feel like it's just depressing.

01:01:27.331 --> 01:01:33.994
It feels like what a therapist would tell you, like if you're horribly depressed no, you have a superpower.

01:01:33.994 --> 01:01:47.202
So I don't want to use that cliche, but I do have to say with confidence I told you I stress about accuracy in my writing, I stress about teaching, I stress about this If you said to me in an hour, can you host a party for 100 people?

01:01:47.202 --> 01:01:48.302
I could do it.

01:01:48.302 --> 01:01:50.148
I could do it.

01:01:50.168 --> 01:01:51.213
That is your superpower.

01:01:51.213 --> 01:01:54.592
That is your superpower and I actually wouldn't worry.

01:01:54.751 --> 01:01:57.052
I wouldn't worry Because you know, it it's just a party.

01:01:57.052 --> 01:01:59.871
And if you think I failed, I don't care, I actually don't.

01:01:59.871 --> 01:02:00.713
Okay, fair enough.

01:02:02.144 --> 01:02:03.530
As long as you have free food and booze.

01:02:03.550 --> 01:02:05.094
we're good, that's right, that's right.

01:02:05.094 --> 01:02:12.427
Martinis for Teenies, for everybody.

01:02:12.427 --> 01:02:16.125
You must have come across like strange medical facts, funny things about the medical like your anecdotes in just watching your videos and reading your stories are immense.

01:02:16.125 --> 01:02:19.731
What's the craziest thing that you've learned in your research?

01:02:19.731 --> 01:02:20.954
That just blew your mind.

01:02:20.954 --> 01:02:22.338
I hate to put you on the spot.

01:02:22.338 --> 01:02:24.253
See, this is the pressure we were talking about before.

01:02:25.505 --> 01:02:27.731
Can we just talk fun weird facts?

01:02:27.731 --> 01:02:28.913
Absolutely.

01:02:28.992 --> 01:02:30.034
Of course, that's all we want.

01:02:30.034 --> 01:02:30.577
How about this?

01:02:30.577 --> 01:02:31.378
That's what it's about.

01:02:31.378 --> 01:02:31.565
How about.

01:02:31.585 --> 01:02:36.673
let's not talk about the actual fact, but things that I've done to get facts.

01:02:36.673 --> 01:02:37.534
Can we yeah?

01:02:37.554 --> 01:02:38.717
Love it, love it, done, love it.

01:02:41.425 --> 01:02:53.735
So I was looking at you're probably the wrong audience for this, but when I was working on my stress book I thought, oh, this is like I just finished like a kind of depressing chapter and I wanted something funnier.

01:02:53.735 --> 01:03:12.730
So, and again, wrong audience here with the three of you, but like I don't know what's funnier than men can't get it up when they're stressed out it doesn't stress me out at all, and so then then I thought, well, I don't want to hear some guys like whoa story, you know, or whatever.

01:03:13.710 --> 01:03:17.512
There's got to be someone that's done some animal research on this.

01:03:17.512 --> 01:03:21.934
Somebody had to have like stress and performance anxiety.

01:03:22.853 --> 01:03:24.295
Interesting.

01:03:24.775 --> 01:03:25.414
Like.

01:03:25.414 --> 01:03:37.440
I spent a while trying and I found a wonderful researcher who was doing it for some drug development, to like his pre Viagra when he was doing this research and he stressed out these little rats, poor guys.

01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.141
And then they would.

01:03:39.141 --> 01:03:46.284
They would monitor how long it took these rats, when they were stressed, to get erections Not, you know, took them longer.

01:03:46.284 --> 01:03:54.353
And then I was like, oh, if I'm describing this as one has to when you're writing, you need all the details to describe it.

01:03:54.373 --> 01:04:17.777
So I was going back and forth with him trying to figure out, like how big is the average rat's erection, which was like I think it was something like and I'd have to check my notes but it might have been something like 2.8 millimeters or something like that but then I was saying to him I'm going to need like people don't know what that is.

01:04:17.777 --> 01:04:19.505
We were literally going back and forth.

01:04:19.505 --> 01:04:31.260
He actually found a certain kind of barley, like he actually had a specific strain of barley that was the exact size of a rat's erect penis strain of barley.

01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:32.802
That was the exact size of a rat's erect penis.

01:04:32.822 --> 01:04:32.983
Right.

01:04:32.983 --> 01:04:37.945
And then I was like but I don't know if that metaphor will land, because you'd have to know either the rat's penis or that specific thing.

01:04:37.945 --> 01:04:42.516
But we did end up coming out with a Q-tip nub, like the little top of a Q-tip.

01:04:42.516 --> 01:04:44.710
So that's a fun fact.

01:04:44.710 --> 01:04:46.769
I'm not sure, I don't know if it's useful.

01:04:46.769 --> 01:04:55.512
I don't know if it's useful, but I spend a lot of time trying to get the details right.

01:04:55.532 --> 01:04:56.637
Specificity, of course, yeah.

01:04:58.045 --> 01:05:07.436
And I live in New York City and, honestly, we live on such a rat-infested block and I'm not worried about their performance anxiety.

01:05:09.588 --> 01:05:13.164
With that, randy, this has been absolutely fascinating.

01:05:13.164 --> 01:05:22.389
Typically we end our episodes on you know, what advice do you have for a young person who wants to follow in your footsteps?

01:05:22.389 --> 01:05:25.320
I think you've shared a lot of that already.

01:05:25.320 --> 01:05:34.016
But if there was one thing you could point at, one, you know nugget of wisdom for somebody coming up in the journalism field what would you tell them?

01:05:34.458 --> 01:05:35.440
Know your subject.

01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:38.608
Read a ton, read a ton.

01:05:38.608 --> 01:05:42.813
Know your subject and keep up the excitement.

01:05:42.813 --> 01:05:57.748
I mean you have to just I know we hear a lot of false news and it's so easy to dumb things down, but there are going to be people there will there will that really want the truth and I think and then gravitate towards the stories that excite you.

01:05:57.748 --> 01:06:02.088
You know, I know I said that you're going to be handed stories to do and find the excitement.

01:06:02.088 --> 01:06:05.896
But yeah, you have to keep your own passion up and your own energy up.

01:06:06.125 --> 01:06:09.590
That's great advice and we have to give you this opportunity as well.

01:06:09.590 --> 01:06:12.255
I know that you have a couple of books out.

01:06:12.255 --> 01:06:22.686
I think you're working on another and we'll keep that off the record for now, but if people want to learn more about you and read your stuff, what are the titles and where should they go?

01:06:23.427 --> 01:06:28.952
Oh, they can go to my website, randyhutterepsteincom.

01:06:28.952 --> 01:06:44.639
And yeah, my first book is Get Me Out, a History of Childbirth, from the Garden of Eden to the Sperm Bank, and the second one is Aroused the History of Hormones and how they Control Just About Everything.

01:06:45.326 --> 01:06:48.998
I just got that on audiobook, by the way, oh thank you.

01:06:49.144 --> 01:06:50.652
Amazing, amazing titles.

01:06:50.652 --> 01:06:56.577
Well, Randy, thank you for allowing me to convince you to join us today and for joining us.

01:06:56.804 --> 01:06:58.010
This has been such a pleasure.

01:06:58.010 --> 01:06:59.074
I'm so happy to be here.

01:06:59.585 --> 01:07:06.599
Well, that was Randy Hutter Epstein, and I hope that she lived up to all of the expectations I set coming into this conversation.

01:07:06.599 --> 01:07:08.731
Larry Shea, what are your reactions?

01:07:11.304 --> 01:07:13.028
Well, I think she just taught us all a thing or two, didn't she?

01:07:13.028 --> 01:07:22.864
I want her as my teacher, like for the rest of time, like the anecdotes, the energy, as you said, the biggest takeaway I have is just self motivating, just self starter.

01:07:22.864 --> 01:07:28.693
You know, like this is the kind of career that you carve out if you truly love what you're doing.

01:07:28.693 --> 01:07:32.278
You know, she said it blankly I love what you're doing.

01:07:32.278 --> 01:07:33.500
She said it blankly I love what I do.

01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:40.617
And it's not for the money, it's not for anything else, it's because she loves to ask that question and research the answer and figure it out.

01:07:40.617 --> 01:07:50.516
And it's just a testament for me to the idea that if you want it bad enough, if you love what you do, you can find that little bit of pocket of perfection.

01:07:50.516 --> 01:08:00.657
Right, it's the teaching world, it's the medicine world, it's her writing, which is obviously most pivotal in her life, with the teaching coupled now.

01:08:00.657 --> 01:08:02.643
But it's also the balance of family.

01:08:02.643 --> 01:08:06.614
Like she has four kids as well, like you gotta be kidding me she did it all.

01:08:06.614 --> 01:08:14.112
It's super impressive, not the smartest person in the room when she's in the room with you, I promise you will never be.

01:08:14.132 --> 01:08:15.153
You mean you, not her.

01:08:16.055 --> 01:08:18.587
Me me right Me, I'm not the smartest All of us.

01:08:18.587 --> 01:08:21.997
Anyone in the room with her, her husband must feel like no kidding.

01:08:21.997 --> 01:08:34.430
You know, in all seriousness, she's a super impressive person and remarkable conversation, and she gave us so many insights into how you can match that to your career journey, and so we thank her for that.

01:08:34.965 --> 01:08:38.555
I appreciate the fact that she is a journalist in the truest sense.

01:08:38.555 --> 01:08:40.127
Right, she is, you know.

01:08:40.127 --> 01:08:43.898
I asked her quite plainly, you know, do you advocate for patients?

01:08:43.898 --> 01:08:47.315
Do you feel yourself you're an advocate for doctors or for medicine?

01:08:47.315 --> 01:08:48.390
And it's no.

01:08:48.390 --> 01:08:54.194
I'm a journalist first, which means I'm an advocate for the truth, and now she's become an advocate for her students.

01:08:54.194 --> 01:09:13.300
You know it's, it's tough, you know I've I've obviously been in the news game now for, you know, almost 20 years at this point, and you do become a bit cynical, right, you become a bit cynical about what people want to learn, what people want to know, and especially now in this day and age, how the business has become, where newsrooms are brought to the bone.

01:09:13.805 --> 01:09:27.813
But to still have that type of hope and light out there to tell kids these days there's still that need for true journalists, for those who are going to ask tough questions, for those who are going to go out and try and find the truth.

01:09:27.813 --> 01:09:37.792
Yes, that's what keeps me motivated, I think it's what keeps all of us motivated, and I'm glad that there is someone on the vanguard like a Randy Hutter Epstein still trumpeting that charge.

01:09:38.493 --> 01:09:56.125
They're wonderful people and what Randy is putting forward is as genuine as you could ever imagine, meaning I have been to more than one event at their house in support of a writer.

01:09:56.125 --> 01:10:14.095
I have been to more than one event at their house in support of a local bookstore and I've met her students and they are involved and they're engaged and she is absolutely living what she preaches day in and day out and it's a really wonderful thing to see.

01:10:14.095 --> 01:10:23.020
And for me, as somebody who has been teaching, you know I've certainly learned a fair amount from her in terms of how to handle my day-to-day and how to approach that stuff.

01:10:23.020 --> 01:10:28.010
So just a remarkable, remarkable woman and she loves to throw a party.

01:10:28.331 --> 01:10:29.635
She sure does, and they're good ones.

01:10:29.944 --> 01:10:33.034
The last one, I think, had two names on the different signature drinks.

01:10:33.034 --> 01:10:33.536
It was great.

01:10:35.047 --> 01:10:35.529
That's great.

01:10:35.529 --> 01:10:37.194
Did you put it together in an hour Exactly?

01:10:37.194 --> 01:10:38.858
Was it an hour or more Exactly?

01:10:39.645 --> 01:10:44.858
So with that, randy, thank you so much for joining this episode of no Wrong Choices.

01:10:44.858 --> 01:10:46.929
We also thank you for joining us.

01:10:46.929 --> 01:10:57.157
If this episode made you think of an inspiring person in your life who could be a great guest, please send us a note via the contact page of our website at norongchoicescom.

01:10:57.157 --> 01:11:07.755
We also encourage you to connect with us on LinkedIn, instagram, youtube, facebook X and Threads On behalf of Tushar Saxena, larry Shea and me, larry Samuels.

01:11:07.755 --> 01:11:16.435
Thank you again, and always remember there are no wrong choices on the road to success, only opportunities, because we learn from every experience.