Learn to Lead: Navigating Success with TV Ad Executive Brian Norris

0:02 Hello and welcome to no Wrong Choices, the podcast that explores the career journeys of accomplished and fascinating people to shine a light on the many different ways we can achieve success. I'm Larry Samuel, soon to be joined by Tushar Saxena and Larry Shen To help support our show. Please be sure to like and follow no Wrong Choices on your favorite podcasting platform. Connect with us on LinkedIn, instagram, youtube, facebook X and Threads, or visit our website at norongchoicescom. This episode features the TV advertising executive, brian Norris. Brian serves as the chief revenue officer and EVP of the EW Scripts Company and is a very good friend of mine.

0:44 Tushar, why don't you lead us into this conversation? All right. So Brian and I work in the same industry the media industry but we're in very different aspects of the business. And, being a CRO the Chief Revenue Officer I am what would probably be labeled as a content creator, and he essentially takes what I do and turns it into money right, so he monetizes what I do and turns it into money right, so he monetizes what we do for a living and, to be quite honest, I'm not always sure of what one aspect of the business means to the other. It'll be really interesting for me to kind of learn that from someone who is so high up in the business at this point in their career. Yeah, I'm really glad you just mentioned that last part, because some of you might be in my camp and have absolutely no idea what this man does on a day-to-day basis.

1:28 Um, I'm looking for some clarity about this whole field, you know. Um, this is something I'm not familiar with. I don't know how you anybody makes money. I don't know what you go to work and do, like what's the first thing you even do? I have no idea what this is so. So, I've met Brian before. We have to give him some hell because he stopped going to your Super Bowl parties. Larry which. I'm very upset at him about, but no great guy. I do know him a little bit and I'm really excited to hear his career journey because I'm sure it's fascinating. It's very funny. As you say all of that, I feel like I have been failing miserably as a friend, as Brian and I we crossed over in our careers for decades. So clearly I never talk about work when we're all together.

2:11 So with that here is Brian Norris. Now joining no Wrong Choices is the TV advertising executive, brian Norris. Brian is currently the executive vice president and chief revenue officer for the EW Scripps Company and, perhaps more importantly or as importantly, a former co-worker and friend of mine dating back to my Dish Network days. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, thank you, larry. Thank you, Good to join you guys today. Well, we need to know what you do, man. What is this? Tell us what it means. My friend, who is Brian Norris, what do you do? And talk to me like I'm a five-year-old, because I have no idea what this job is, because he really is very much like a five-year-old.

2:52 Yes, no problem at all, you know. First off, thank you guys for having me. I've been looking forward to this for a long time, so thank you for having me. Um, very simply put, if you've ever watched commercials on television, there is a team that sells those commercials to advertisers, and I have the privilege of leading teams that sell advertising across multiple platforms. All right, so your, uh, your official title is chief revenue officer, and I was kind of asking Sam, before we got on, what is the difference between a chief revenue officer and a CFO, a chief financial officer? The chief revenue officer is going to be responsible for bringing money into the company. All right, In my case, through advertising revenue.

3:35 The chief financial officer is going to be responsible for all of the expenses for counting the money to make sure that the company is financially solvent. That's the key difference. All right, so we have a little bit of background with that. Let's go back to the beginning. I understand you grew up in Brooklyn, brooklyn in the house right here, thank you for that. That was very cool. I think, Brian's going to do it better. Give him a chance. I think he is. I think he is. He'll do everything better. But bring us back to your youth. You know what was your young life like? Was this always the goal, Was this always the dream? And tell us how your neighborhood kind of shaped you.

4:17 Sure, no problem. So, yes, grew up in Brooklyn, new York, born and raised there, and grew up in a place called Starrett City it's very close to Canarsie in Brooklyn, lived there for the early part of my life and then we moved downtown Brooklyn, and so it's important, because where I grew up in, Starrett City is quite possibly one of the most diverse areas in all of Brooklyn. It is truly, truly a melting pot of every nationality and every culture that exists in New York City and I had the privilege of growing up in that community. But early days, you know, listen I, if you would have asked me what I wanted to be when I grow up, I would have been happy playing first base for the New York Mets.

5:01 That was, that was number one. Number two I think I would have been very happy playing left tackle for the New York Mets. That was number one. Number two I think I would have been very happy playing left tackle for the New York Giants. So those were my first, earliest dreams. But the reality is I grew up in Brooklyn, played sports in high school, played baseball in high school, excelled at football in high school and went on to play football at Towson University in Maryland. And if you would have asked me when I was 18 what I was going to be when I grew up, I probably would have said a journalist writing for the New York Times or on air as a broadcast journalist. And then I realized very quickly that if I was to achieve that dream I would have likely had to start in a market that was slightly smaller than New York City.

5:49 So I pivoted from that, from that dream, and thought about what a career in media could look like for me. Enough when I was in undergrad to have the opportunity to apply to a multicultural career workshop that was hosted by the IRTS. So the IRTS is short for International Television and Radio Society. Now the organization goes by IRTS Foundation, but this is an organization that's been around for decades with the goal of helping to build, find and mold the next generation of media leaders in our business.

6:32 And so, when I was an undergrad, my journalism professor held up an application at the beginning of the class and he's like hey, I have this application for a career workshop being held in New York City. If you want to apply, come see me after class and make a photocopy of the application and give it back to me so that another student can apply behind you. And so, after class, I went over to my professor, dr Kim, and I said hey, I'd love to make a photocopy of that application. He said hey, I'd love to make a photocopy of that application. He said listen, nobody else has asked for it, so you can keep the application. And so I took the application. I knew that this could be a really important thing for me and that I should really give it my all, and so I did.

7:16 I filled out the application, provided my resume, I wrote a couple of essays and I put my all into it, and I ended up being accepted. I think it was a pretty competitive process, but I was accepted and I got the chance to spend two days in New York City the first day, learning what the interview process should be like for you as a young adult student who's about to graduate, how to create a resume, how to be engaging in an interview, how to project yourself in an intelligent way and actually impress. And so the second day, I spent interviewing with a handful of companies.

7:59 It was speed dating, if you will, but I spent time with with a handful of companies and my strategy. I was very, very clear about this strategy. The strategy was the first company to offer me a job, I would accept it. That's a great, very simple strategy that works. And so, and so it's a this is part of my journey, and so this is part of my journey. I left that career workshop and went back to school. This career workshop might have been in February or March. I did not get one phone call, one job offer.

8:40 I did not get any outreach from any of the people that I reached out to until maybe about three months later, and I ended up getting a call from a couple of networks, and the one that was the most memorable was Lifetime Television. So I interviewed at Lifetime Television. What month was it? I'm sorry not to interrupt. What month was this, you said you interviewed in February. I think I did the career workshop in February and I probably say by April I got an interview. So by the end of the semester somebody called you right. Right, right. And at this time I was listening to other companies that resided in the Maryland area, although I knew I wanted to get back to New York City. So I interviewed at Lifetime.

9:22 I interviewed in the marketing department. I interviewed in the marketing department, I interviewed in the in the ad sales department and again, the strategy was the first, first job offer Say yes. So fast forward to the day of graduation. And graduation for me was, and for many people was, a big event. Right, my family was there, my parents, my grandmother, my friends, there were so many people there to celebrate me, and I still didn't have a job and my apartment was packed up. The only thing that was left unpacked in my apartment and you know I'll age myself here was a floor speaker.

10:09 Oh geez, and an answering machine on top. I think it was just standalone, I'm sure something was attached to it. And so I got back from the, from the ceremony, and there was a message on the answering machine. So I listened to the message. It was Lifetime Television and with instructions to call them back. And so I ended up calling them back. I took my cordless phone, I went into the bathroom because the apartment was filled with people and I called them back and the woman who who picked up, who became my boss, a woman named Darlene, and she offered me the job, and the first thing I said was yes, and she said and so she said don't you even want to know how much it pays?

10:49 And I said I don't really care, but you can tell me. And so she's like all right, well, well, it's, it's, it's $25,000 and you don't get benefits for the first year. And I said, uh, absolutely yes. Perfect. What do I? start? Yes, and so that actually was. My next question was when do I start? She said can you start on Monday? I said Monday's Memorial day, but if you want me to be there, I'll be there, so nevertheless, nevertheless, I started the Tuesday after. Wow, that that was a great setup. Brian, thank you. But uh, on this show we try not to to gloss over really important parts, and I know that you were a good athlete. I know that your college experience was a very positive one that had a pretty big impact upon your journey.

11:33 So let's go back for a second and can you please take us through that part of your life. Take us back to the beginning of college. Sure. So I went to college at Towson University in Maryland At the time. It's a Division IAA school and we competed mainly across the eastern seaboard. And so when I was in high school, my first love was actually baseball, but I was better at football, and so I got some advice from a high school football coach, which ended up being bad advice. He encouraged me to stick with one sport and to stick with the sport that was quote unquote my bread and butter, and so I decided I was better at football, so I stuck with football.

12:20 Although I regret it, I wish I would have kept playing both sports, being that baseball was my number one sport. But nonetheless I went off to Maryland by myself, didn't really know hardly anybody I think I knew one person that was going to the school and I found myself outside of New York, living outside of New York City and living, you know, in Maryland, and my first exposure to the school was for football camp, and it was. I was definitely a fish out of water, and what I my first take on my arrival at Towson is how professionally run the football program was and is.

13:03 It is a business. Football at the collegiate level is a business, and it was run so professionally and well and run so well that that lent itself to discipline, right being where you're supposed to be at a specific time. It led to not making excuses and, quite frankly, it led to the foundation of how I lead teams today, and so I enjoyed my time at Towson and being part of that football team. Was it fun playing football in college? That is a great question and I say it all the time. I wouldn't call it fun.

13:44 I think game day. For me, game day was fun, camaraderie with my teammates was fun. However, it is a commitment. It is a time commitment is a commitment to your not just your athletics, but a commitment to your academics, and so while I saw some of my other classmates maybe going to two classes a day and sleeping half the day and and and being able to party and spend time with friends, I was always scheduled. I always either had to be studying or in the film room or in the weight room or in the field, and so it is certainly a commitment room or in the weight room or in the field, and so it is certainly a commitment.

14:27 But from the standpoint of actually competing, the competition was a great part of it, but game day is. There's nothing that beats game day in there, and then there's nothing better than the friendships that you, that you acquire from being around the teammates. What did you major in college from being around the teammates? What did you major in college? Sure, I was a uh. I was a uh mass communications major, with a specific focus on journalism, and uh public relations. Okay, so you had mentioned just a moment ago that at one point, at 18, you said you saw yourself being a journalist, writer, correct. And then you thought you saw yourself being a broadcaster, but you didn't see those coming to fruition, maybe in New York. Why did you never want to pursue that outside of New York?

15:09 You were obviously in a good market in Maryland. You probably could have gotten a really good start in your career there. Why didn't you pursue that? I think it boiled down to me having a desire to get back to New York City. At the time my grandmother was aging. I was incredibly close with my grandmother and she had gotten sick and I wanted to be closer to my family, and so I made the decision to try to get directly into the New York market in the media field, and it just happened to work out for me. But I never lost my desire to write. I and the beauty about writing is that I got a great voice.

15:51 You got a great voice for broadcast. Thank you. I've been told I have a face for radio but I've been told I also have a voice for print. No, uh, yeah, it's still write today. I write for fun, right? I write as a hobby, I write when I feel like I have something to say, and so that brings me joy. So the joy that that I was able to achieve from writing did not go away because I didn't pursue it as a as a professional career. Diversity is something you brought up this moment about where you grew up in Brooklyn. How did you find diversity when you went to Towson?

16:32 Sure, when I went to Towson it was a diverse campus. I will say this now I'm still very much involved with Towson and I go back to campus and it is a lot more diverse campus right now, but back then it was decently diverse and my football team, my teammates it was an incredibly diverse team. So growing up in Brooklyn in my area and playing sports and being a part of this football team, it, uh it the diversity was never something that I thought about because it was always present in my, in my life. I love that you said a minute ago that you regretted giving up baseball.

17:14 Um, because we often hear people say, oh, I have no regrets, I have no, I have a million regrets. I think that's okay to live with a little bit of regret and maybe you could have taken a different path. Think that's okay to live with a little bit of regret and maybe you could have taken a different path. I guess my question is was football kind of a means to an end with you in terms of your education, and how good of a student were you when you were at Towson? I would not say that football was a means to an end. It was not. I don't like to paint the picture that you know I was a kid from Brooklyn and football got me out right. I would have been fine if I didn't like to paint the picture that you know I was a kid from Brooklyn and football got me out Right. I would have been fine if I didn't play sports Right, I was. I was a pretty decent student in high school. I enjoyed the competition of football and the discipline that it that it gave me.

17:58 I could actually see it working when I was in in the process. See it working when I was in the process. I could see myself becoming more disciplined. I could see myself envision myself leading teams and learning from that situation. So football was something that I enjoyed. It was definitely something I enjoyed, and I certainly regretted not continuing to play baseball. I still love it. And as far as academics were concerned, I was a pretty good student. I'd say my freshman year I thought that I was doing well. And then I get my grades and I have a 2.75, right and I had three B's and a C, and so then I really buckled down and I really started taking my academics seriously and, as a matter of fact, when you when you go into playing at least back then, when you go play college football the coaches tell you how many credits you should take on, and so I was taking on 12 credits a semester.

19:04 And then, after, I think, my sophomore junior year, I realized that would take me five years to graduate, and so I did not want to be an undergrad for five years, and so I doubled up on classes. I took summer classes, I took winter classes and ended up graduating on time after four years and fixed my grades and I ended up graduating cum laude. So I was definitely proud of my academic achievements, and I think it was. I think I was more proud that I was able to make up that ground and actually get better grades as I took on more credit hours around and actually get better grades as I took on more credit hours.

19:47 How difficult was it to manage that schedule? I mean it sounds like having a full time job with the college football adding on additional classes. How difficult was that for? you. Well, it was actually impossible, and I'll tell you why it was. It was so difficult that my senior year I actually decided not to play football, oh wow. And so I knew I wanted to graduate and I probably wanted to graduate in four years. And so I took on. I was taking maybe like 21, 22, 23 credits a semester to make up that ground, and so I didn't play my senior year semester to make up that ground, and so I didn't play my senior year At that moment in my life.

20:29 That was probably the toughest decision that I've ever had to make as a 21-year-old, but it ended up being the right one, because I graduated in 99. I got my jobs, I started working six days after graduation and then the internet bubble burst in 2000. And very few of my friends that wanted to get into media were able to get into media. So I got in at the ideal time. So it ended up being one of those pivotal moments in my life. And one of your friends that you're talking to was pushed out of media for a few minutes at that time when the dot-com bubble burst. That was a very rough period and patch in the industry for sure. It really was so jumping to Lifetime.

21:13 Talk about beginning your journey within the media industry. How shockingly different was the experience, Just what happened when you walked in that door. Sure. So now I started working at Lifetime as a sales assistant six days after I graduated. I certainly felt like a fish out of water. And something interesting happened my first week on the job and this was another one of those pivotal moments for me. So you think about the pivotal moment. I get the phone call on the day that I graduated. That's a pivotal moment. And then I, my first week, I get a call from the head of HR and she calls me and she offers to take me to lunch.

22:00 And I say to myself I'm like why is she taking me to lunch? Maybe she takes all new hires to lunch. But what I did know is that this woman I had a lot of respect for I met her during my interview process and she was a Black woman kind of reminded me of my mother. I say she's like a cross between my mother and Claire Huxtable. So when she spoke, you listened and, and and. As we were walking to lunch she said listen, brian, I don't take all new hires to lunch. And so I'm sitting there. I'm like why is she taking me to lunch? I don't think she'd feed. I don't think she'd feed me if she was firing me, but nonetheless she said I'm taking you to lunch because this company is a couple of decades old and you're the first black person in ad sales.

22:47 Wow, Crazy. Wow. And I wanted, and I wanted you to know that, and she said everything that she had my attention. And everything she said after that I listened, and so what I do remember her saying is that, listen, brian, a lot of people wanted you to have this job in this building and a lot of people didn't want you to have this job. But what she didn't? But she also made it clear the people that didn't want you to have this job they didn't want you to have them not wanting you to have this job had nothing to do with your color. What you represented was a departure from the status quo, where the hiring managers can, uh, where nepotism runs rampant right, I'll just leave it at that.

23:28 You represent a departure from that, and um, and so she said listen, you know you need to perform right, and I hate to say this, but if you don't perform, who knows who? Who will come behind you Right, and so that was a pivotal moment. And you know will come behind you Right, and so that was a pivotal moment. And you know she had inadvertently put pressure on me, but I had usually did pretty well in pressure back situations. I wasn't afraid of the pressure, and so I knew that I had to at least perform well and and succeed. First of all, that's how I'm built. I'm incredibly competitive and, second of all, I felt like there was a higher purpose that would lead to my success and what can come from this success.

24:17 And so I took it very, very seriously and I was a sales assistant for about a year or so and then I moved up within the organization and that company. It was the ideal start for me in media and I moved up. I had great mentors within that company. I had great people that helped me along the way, not just telling me how great I was, but people who kicked me in the ass when I needed to, when I needed to get it. I'm so grateful for those people and um and for that company, because it was the ideal way for me to start in media and it continues to be the foundation, um of how I operate today.

25:00 All right. So I kind of want to ask you about the idea of having that kind of pressure put on a young man to tell them a young person to be told you know you are here for you are here to sit, you're here. I wouldn't even say to be a trailblazer, but I mean, in some ways that's really what it was right. So your mentality going into Lifetime must have been okay want to kind of, you know, be one of the one of the people that work here. I want to succeed at my job, etc, etc. But after you have this conversation, how does that mindset change? To say, when you're, when you understand that you are, you are setting a, an example for others behind you and what you do matters, not just for a year from now, 10, 20, 30 years from now yeah, it, um, it does matter.

25:49 And and if you go back to how I grew up in diverse areas and that's part of the reason why I told you about where I grew up, because I was never the only, I was never the first in my entire life uh, I was. I was always in environments, so much so that I didn't really have to think about it until I entered into corporate America, and that was a big shocker for me. I really really felt like a fish out of water and so I had to adapt and it was difficult adapt and and it was difficult. It's been almost 25 years later and it is still something that that I think about.

26:38 Right, and I think about not just doing the best job, you know, for myself and for my own pride and my own ego, but I do know that when I walk into a room, people see my color, right, and I do not buy into when anyone says I don't see color, because you do see color. That is the first thing that you see. And I want people to see my color. I want people to see what I represent and how I govern myself and how I have this drive to be great and excellent and all of that and to decouple that from my color would be unfair. You know, with that said, I'm curious.

27:19 You've been in the business for 25 years. You talked about coming in via IRTS and you've shared this experience with us. You know, I'm curious how have you seen the industry change on this front over the course of the past 25 years? If? at all of how the media business has changed, but still there's. It hasn't changed enough. And I'm a adjunct professor at Fordham in the business school and I tell my students-. Let me interrupt real quick. I am a graduate of Fordham class 1994. It's always good to speak to another Fordham man.

28:01 Go. Rams. You're damn right, yes. So I tell my students all the time I'm like when you're thinking about working for a company and you're in the interview process. The interview process is a two-way street right, and I encourage them to take a look at that company or their favorite products, the products that they use every day, the products that they believe in, and all you have to do is Google one thing, take the product name and Google leadership team and see what comes up. And this is no indictment on any company in particular, but far too often when I Google those things the company name and leadership team I don't see a great representation of the United States or the customers that use those products, and so I don't think it's much of an ask to have an expectation of your favorite brands to look like the world or the country that we live in, or the country that we live in, and so, in that regard, I think that we need to do a lot more work for us to get there.

29:08 So, for me, I've seen small changes, but on a macro level, I think that corporate America needs to be intentional about building companies and building teams that look like the customers that use their products, not a big ask. Yeah, we need to do a lot better in that area. For sure, it's a great sentiment. You talked a minute ago about how you were built. You know, competitively. I think sports had a little bit to do with that, maybe. But now, yeah, you're heaped all this pressure on you. Yeah, you're heaped all this pressure on you, and I guess my question is in terms of advertising, sales, you're now on that path and you're starting your career trajectory to hopefully achieve great things.

29:53 Did you find yourself, in terms of your own personality, fitting what was required of sales and advertising, or did you have to kind of change who you were a little bit, because we talked about it before we came on the air here that some people find this a thrilling environment and other people, like you know, it's like watching paint dry. I mean, you got to kind of be built for this a little bit. So how much of an adjustment did you have to make, or were you just built for this? Yeah, I think I was. I've always been built for leadership and things like that. However, as with anything, you have to put effort into it right, and so what I did notice very early on and when I say early on, I mean my first six months in the business is that, you know, if I take it back, I'm a, I'm a writer, I love writing, and writing is something that you do by yourself for the most part, so I think I'm a born introvert.

30:49 However, sitting in that cubicle looking around at the people who were successful in making money and doing well and having influence, they were all extroverts. So I made a conscious decision to change myself into an extrovert, and so not easy, but it was something, something that I that I did. I researched presidents, I researched CEOs and and and I think about how, and I learned about how they did it, and I tried to incorporate a lot of what they did in order to help, you know, mold my, my personality. So I had to um, uh, I changed myself into an extrovert, and a lot of the, a lot of being an extrovert is is more so about listening than actually speaking, and so I take pride in in being able to listen and connect with people, and so that was fairly difficult adjustment that I had to make.

31:46 But then, as I moved in my career, other adjustments that I've made were surrounding authenticity, right. So you enter into corporate America and, as a man, you see other men doing and saying and dressing exactly alike. Right, they're wearing the khaki pants, the white shirt, the blue blazer, and nowadays they're wearing the Patagonian vest. Everybody looks like a clone of one another, and if you depart from that, you might feel like you might be ostracized or looked at differently. And so as I evolved in my career yes, I think I wore the corporate uniform, the suit, the tie, the khakis, the blazer.

32:32 I did all of that. And then, as I evolved in my career, how I dress did not define me, right, the results that I produced and that my teams produce. That's going to be how I'm defined in media from a business standpoint and from a leadership standpoint. A lot of what defines me is how I provide access to other people who otherwise might not have access to our business. And so now, 25 years later, I'm authentic, I dress the way that I want, I'm comfortable. I've worked so hard in order to have a voice, and you don't get that voice unless you do a great job.

33:16 You don't get that political capital unless you do a great job. So the work is the most important thing that can allow you to have a voice and, in my case, do the things that really bring me joy, which is helping young people gain access to this business when they otherwise wouldn't have had a chance. And so, full circle moment. I now sit on the board of that same IRTS foundation as vice chairman of educational programs, and so I'm able to do all the things that bring me joy, and do it within an organization that was so helpful for me getting into the business. Brian, we often talk on this show then, and we've used this saying before is that mentors need mentors.

34:00 Obviously, you mentioned a moment ago that you had a number of mentors throughout your career, early portion of your career, who shaped who you are today. I wonder, do you still have a mentor every now and then that you need to speak to someone that you continue to look up to in the business, maybe retired at this point, and then how do you then go forward to mentor your knowledge and your experience to others below you? Sure, I have been so fortunate to have great mentors, and I wouldn't say that I have one mentor. I think I have multiple mentors and people that I go to for advice, depending on the situation. But I will say that, as far as mentorship is concerned, there's a gentleman named Wendell Scott, who works at Disney, who was a great mentor of mine.

34:49 I have another friend named Rashawn Lindsay most recently was the CEO of Hot 97 and WBLS, and these are people that I will call and they drop everything to help give me advice, that I will call and they drop everything to help give me advice. And the other important thing that I talk to young people and people as they grow in their career is you have to have someone who you can be 100% transparent with. And so, in the case of mentorship, I will tell you the last, I think two or three job offers that I got, uh, the gentleman that I mentioned previously. I completely opened up my books to them, uh, to go through every aspect of the offer, right, right, because I don't know what I don't know and they gave me such great advice, um, in helping me navigate the negotiation process, and I will say that each of those people helped me gain more than I was originally offered because I have a trust with them and a transparency in that relationship.

35:56 And as far as me mentoring people, over the last 25 years I've probably mentored a few hundred people, and that largely comes from my association with the IRTS. The IRTS has a summer fellowship program where we host a few dozen students in New York City. We give them housing at NYU and we place them at a media or tech company, and of the 50 students that we host over the summer, usually about half of them might reach out to me and ask for informationals or one-on-ones and I do my very best to take a meeting with each of them and then fast forward.

36:41 Maybe about a quarter of the people that I've met with they stay in contact and they ask me about entering into the business, and so there are just countless people that I've given advice to that I've had hard conversations with, because somebody has to. And then there are people that I've just seen grow and I sit back and I just see how proud, see how I'm so proud of what they've done and I see how much they've accomplished. And guess what, now that mentor mentee relationship might only be activated once a year or maybe once every other year. But when we have a conversation we pick up where we left off and I give them the advice that they're looking for. And I got to be honest, usually the advice that I give them is what they already know.

37:25 They just need a little bit of encouragement. Affirmation. Affirmation correct. Right, that's so interesting, you know. Building upon that, I want to spend a little bit of time talking about the industry itself. You know, for young people who are listening to this episode, who are thinking about getting into the advertising business, I think they probably want to get a little bit of insight into what the landscape is like and what the job is, et cetera, et cetera. If you could sort of describe the TV advertising industry somewhat broadly, in terms of the fun, the excitement, the challenges, how would you, I guess, describe the TV advertising industry to a young person who's thinking about breaking into the business today?

38:15 Sure, I'd say I love this business. I love what this business has been able to do for me and my family. What I do tell people who are interested in getting into the business is to think about it not just from a siloed, linear television standpoint or a digital only standpoint. I tell people to think about television from a or video from a or video from a macro level and what the exciting parts about what we do is being able to provide solutions for advertisers. Right, and I think the most well-known aspect of what we do is has to be the Superbowl and the amount of money that gets generated through the Superbowl.

38:59 And the amount of money that gets generated through the Super Bowl, which is still even with the price of a spot, is still one of the best values in all of media, given the exposure that these brands get. But I talk to my students and young people and people that are curious about the advertising business is to think about the brands that they consume and think about the advertising journey of the brands that they use. I try to ask people and encourage people to think about advertising from their own perspective as a consumer and then, once you have a great understanding as a consumer how advertising impacts you, then you can help evolve the business by bringing your ideas, your thoughts into the business world, and the goal is to have a seat at the table for you to voice those thoughts and ideas.

39:53 And so it might seem pretty simple, but the advertising business is just that it's a business. Building upon that. That's the serious part, that's the focus, the drive, the goal setting, et cetera, et cetera. But what about the fun parts? As I look back, I worked in the media industry for 25 years. Whatever it was, I entered a world that was a lot of fun. It was an ongoing party, it was a game after a concert, after a this after a that. It was a very social environment. So, beyond the objectives, beyond the true business sense of it, is it still a fun, exciting and incredibly social business to get into?

40:39 It is. It is a fun business. Right, I have been to plenty of Super Bowls. I've been to plenty of events. I have been able to do fun things with clients I was with clients on a glacier in Iceland right. I've taken clients to the Bahamas right, we've done a lot of fun things and there are great meals to be had and experiencing some of the best restaurants in the country and being able to have some of the best experiences in the country. All of that is still well and true. However, I think where a lot of people get in trouble is that they hyper focus on the fun part.

41:21 Right is that they hyper-focus on the fun part and they think that the good times are going to keep on rolling as long as they can take people out and show them a good time and buy them a steak and take them to a suite at the next game. But all of those things they serve as a value add if you actually understand how you can make an impact on a client's business. But all of the fun aspects of what we do are there. I just like to use them as a relationship building tool with advertisers. It's a great conversation. Just because of the context of the industry, it's an important one to have to give us some layers of what you're doing and what you're thinking about.

42:05 So really great conversation. I do want to get back to your career journey, though, because we did veer off that path a little bit. What I really want to know, I mean, obviously, self-motivation has never been a problem for you. You're going and getting degrees while you're working full-time jobs. You're working on a spare time MBA at Brown, you know, because that's what we all do in our spare time. But while you're going from job to job, I mean, is it apparent to you when it's time to move on to a new position, and how do you go about getting that position? Sometimes it's apparent, and sometimes you need to listen to the universe Right.

42:45 Sometimes you have, you have goals of how you'd like your career to evolve and grow. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't, but the universe has an interesting way of letting you know when it's time to go Right, and for me, I'm. I've always been keen on listening Right and and being patient, and so I've. I've done certain things in my career. You mentioned about the NBA. I did the NBA as a, as an executive at the time at Dish, and I went back to school and the company was very supportive and I did that in 2015 and graduated after a couple of years.

43:27 And I got the MBA because I wanted to. First of all, I wanted to learn something. I felt like I was ill-equipped to operate at a high level from a business standpoint and I didn't want to fake it. I wanted to go and learn something to help propel my career forward, and that is exactly what it did. But when it comes time for the change of a situation, I constantly want to be moving forward and making progress, and for me, that means working with people that I can learn from, working with people who are great business thinkers, great business leaders, empathetic and interested in in my my growth as a business person, and so I've been fortunate enough that the company that I work for now, scripps, that is, this has has been the ideal situation for me.

44:25 The work is hard, but I work with such great people that it is just so enjoyable. So, brian, that's a perfect setup for what I want to talk about next, and that's an exploration of what you're doing now. Share with us how somebody, I guess, breaks into the C-suite. You're the chief revenue officer for Scripps, which is a very big role and a very big job. How does somebody break through to that tier within an organization? And, just for anybody out there who may not know what I'm talking about, just share a little bit about what the C-suite means. Sure out. Just share a little bit about what the C-suite means.

45:07 Sure, so for me. So, first of all, the C-suite at our company is inclusive of anybody who has a chief word within their title our chief marketing officer, our chief operating officer, our chief executive officer, our chief financial officer, our chief administrative officer and our general counsel, of course. So there are a handful of us that sit at that level within the organization but, quite frankly, at Scripps it doesn't necessarily feel like it's such a, you know, elusive position to hold. I work with a group of down-to-earth, reasonable, incredibly smart leaders and, I think, most importantly, when I joined the company, they made me feel welcome.

46:00 Right, and I think that is one of the the the biggest eye opening things for me. When I joined the company, I really, really felt welcome. But talking about the, the interview process, I was recruited from, believe it or not, linkedin, right, I got a note from our executive recruiter and she presented this opportunity. That sounded exactly what I was honed, my leadership style, my ability to move businesses forward, to create and to disrupt within the marketplace, and I felt like all of those things led me to this point, and so I think, one of the most important things that I can tell you is that when someone reaches out to you whether you are happy in your job or whether you are unhappy in your job, I think you owe it to yourself to listen.

47:09 There's a conversation, is is free, right, and so and so, um, I had that conversation and, um, the opportunity that they presented to me was was a, quite frankly, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, especially, you know, for someone my age, I think you know. When I accepted the role, I was 46 years old and fairly young for that type of position, and it was exactly what I wanted to do. What I will say also is that the interview process, about the interview process, it got easier after I got my MBA Right, and so some folks might say, well, what does that exactly mean?

47:51 The MBA, I think, is part of the vetting process, right. When someone sees that on your resume, it, quite frankly, could put you in a different position in terms of people that they are interested in joining the organization. And so my process wasn't I'm not going to say it was incredibly easy, it was. I met with a lot of people. I must have met with 12 or 13 people during the process. Over the course of how long, over the course of about four weeks, including a trip to Cincinnati, and so the company that's where Scripps is headquartered, by the way.

48:33 But the company moves incredibly fast and they move the process along very efficiently and quickly. All of the key decision makers within the company and my experience was pleasant. But at this point in my career I'm interested in moving businesses forward. I have a belief of some of the things that we can do to move things forward, to build high-performing teams, and all I did was share that during the interview process, and so it's up to the person who was interviewing me to say, hey, that aligns with our beliefs, our philosophy, our tenants as a company, or it doesn't, right.

49:21 And so I wasn't in a position where I needed a job, therefore needed to appease the egos of the people that I was meeting with. I was just able to go in and be authentic and be my true self and give my opinions about how we can move the business forward and display enthusiasm. I was very enthusiastic about this opportunity because I saw what the opportunity could be for me to help move this business forward, and so in certain instances I didn't sugarcoat things and in other instances I really leaned in from an enthusiastic standpoint to get my point across, that I was just so excited about what the opportunity could be.

50:01 And then, finally, I displayed a level of vulnerability during the process because I knew that I had blind spots. I am very, very aware of my blind spots and within this organization, I lead the national team, which we call networks, I lead the CTV or streaming team, and then I also lead all local, the local media team from a sales standpoint. The blind spot that I've had in my career is that I've worked for about maybe 4% of my career in local, so I didn't know that space very well. But guess, but guess what. I have a, an incredible leader on my leadership team that leads local for us and she had local stations right, local, local station sales Correct, and she has taught me so much, and so I'm willing to learn.

50:53 I want to learn Um and, quite frankly, um a business decision that you make about the, the direction of the business. It doesn't matter if we're talking about streaming, local or national. You just have to make a sound business decision with the information that you have in front of you, and that's what I've been able to do with the help of my leader and then the people that I lead as well. How do you walk into that big of an undertaking, take a look around and decide what needs to happen, what needs to be prioritized Like? How do you tackle something like that? Yeah, it's, you know you fall. I tell people all the time like when you're in a new environment you fall.

51:35 Back on your training. I have been blessed to have you know over 20 years of training in this business, and the MBA certainly helped when it came to change management. But for me it was first and foremost boiling down all of the objectives into about a handful of objectives, and everything that we do in the future has to tie back to those objectives or we're not doing them. And how many people do you oversee so that you are? Is it right to even use that term, or is it just say how many people do you lead? Yeah, yeah. I don't really love the term oversee, but I'd say like, from a leadership standpoint between local, national and my digital team, it's probably a little bit over and operations probably a little bit over 500 people.

52:26 How do you manage all those personalities? Obviously, it's 500 different personalities. And then, what would you say is your managerial style? Do you have? Do you have a style? Do you want to label a style with that you? have? Yeah, I definitely. I definitely do have a style, but the first thing that is key to managing large teams is having a great leadership team under me, and I have great, great people under me, some of which I've inherited when I joined the organization, and then there are some that I've hired onto the organization, into the organization. I should say so I just have a great team of leaders under me. Otherwise that would not be possible.

53:08 It is impossible for one person to manage such a large team. But in terms of my leadership style, I'm a big believer in keeping a leadership philosophy. So my leadership philosophy is something that is living and breathing and it evolves as I evolve. I share it with everyone on my team and it basically it's a written document that basically talks about me leading. Too often, Many leaders only think about you know results, being up and to the right, but when you think about the best leaders that you've had in your career, you never go back and say that leader was great.

54:01 We were always up and to the right. You think about how that leader made you feel right, and so you also think about the time in your career when a leader that you worked for had the opportunity to do the right thing right, had the opportunity to put the team first, had the opportunity to put themselves second and they had a decision to make. And sometimes those leaders make the wrong decisions. And just as I'm saying that, I'm sure each of you have had a leader pop into your head Right. And so we always say when I become the boss, I'm going to lead things a certain way, the same same way we say when I become a parent, I'm going to I might parent differently than my parents.

54:41 And guess what? You find yourself saying some antiquated term that your parents say and you're like, I sound just like my dad, or I sound just like my mom and so I've entered into the leadership space. Thinking about this might sound strange, but I think about every bad boss that I've ever had, every single one, and I try to do the opposite of what they've done, and so it seemed to work. It seems to have worked pretty well for me. People really enjoy working on my teams, and I've worked with a number of people multiple times at different companies, and they seem to enjoy it, and so I, the first and foremost, I have to be an empathetic leader. That doesn't mean that we don't drive results, because we do, but I take pride in being able to to know my teams and to know their collective personalities, and I take pride in giving them the opportunity, and I think this is the most important part of my leadership style.

55:38 I require my teams and the people on my teams to challenge me when they have a next best solution. So you think about this. I'm making call it, a hundred decisions every day. I'm trying to use as much information as I have in front of me to make a decision and move on, but that one decision that I make is really, really important to you, and so if there's a next best way for us to move forward and I didn't make that decision for us to move forward and I didn't make that decision. I require you to challenge me on that decision. There's only one caveat you have to do it in a business-first approach, right? You can't be led by your emotions.

56:20 You can't say well, brian, I think we should do this because I just feel and then fill in the blanks. You have to come with me with a great business justification. Feel and then fill in the blanks. You have to come with me with a great business justification. But I require my teams to challenge me. There will never be a repercussion for challenging me with sound business thinking. There might be repercussions if you never challenge me, right? So, and I understand and I recognize that many leaders don't lead like that Leaders just want to be, you know, they want to hear yes all the time, and they, they want to feel like they're the smartest person in the room. But you know what they say if you think you're the smartest person in the room, you're. You should probably join another room, and so I never want to be the smartest person in the room.

57:03 So I guess to that end is that let me ask first a quickie question, which is how many people are in your leadership team? Yeah, it's a moving number. We're going through a restructure right now, but right now it's about six people. All right, so six people and, as you said a moment ago, that you inherited a few and then you hire a few. So, those that you hire, what are the traits and qualities? You look in those folks? Yeah, great question. The first thing that I look for is do people want to follow this person? All right, do people want to follow them? The next thing that I think about is what's this person's business acumen? Right? I think I might've said it before it's one thing to be business smart.

57:47 There's another thing to be ad sales smart. I want have said it before it's one thing to be business smart, there's another thing to be ad sales smart. I want a combination of both, and if I had to choose, I'd probably choose I'd lean a little bit more towards business. So I look for well-rounded people, people who are empathetic, people that have a great leadership style that doesn't alienate anyone on the team, somebody who understands the importance of having a diverse team. And I'm just not talking about ethnicity, I'm talking about a balance, a gender balance. I'm talking about diversity in terms of background and skill sets, right, and making sure that our skill sets don't mirror one another, that they compliment one another, and so the final thing that I think about is exactly that is this person who is joining my leadership team?

58:40 Are they someone who compliments me or mirrors me? Most of the time, I'm going to look for someone who compliments me and has a diverse skill set and possibly even skills that I don't have myself. What about the beer test? One of the things that I've thought about in my career and journey when hiring people is can this person pass the beer test? Meaning, can I imagine myself sitting with this person and having a beer and having a real conversation? And maybe we don't have everything in common, but I can sit down and imagine spending a little bit of time with this person.

59:23 Does that in any way come into your thinking? Earlier in my career it might have, but now I'll push back on that test a little bit, because you can replace that word beer with anything meaning the golf test Can I go on the golf course with this person? The concert test Can I go to a concert with this person? Can I have a meal with this person? And I think a lot of times people might be excluded if they don't, if they don't fit into, if they don't quote, unquote, fit with the organization, and sometimes the word fit can be a derogatory term, because what's the criteria that you're basing it on, right?

1:00:07 Can I, is this person just like us? Did we go to the same college? Do we have the same background? Right. And so you run the risk of missing out on some people. And I also think about the term like the beer test or the golf test. I don't play golf. I play golf maybe twice a year and it's always a scramble and I get exhausted by the 13th hole, right. So so maybe I haven't been invited to play golf with you know senior people in the organization because I'm not a golfer. And guess what? I miss out on great opportunities. So now I tend to think about it is can this person be reasonable?

1:00:49 Can I have a conversation with this person? That's beyond business. Can I get to know about their families? Right, but ultimately I want to know if they can do the job and if they can lead with empathy and if they can evolve their thought process as the business evolves, whether or not I can have a beer with them. I think I've evolved from that and it's probably irrelevant at this point. Very interesting. So, brian, I want to circle back to the time management piece that we talked about before, because we really just touched on it and we talked about you going to school at night and I just don't know how you have the time. That's what we really need to know is how do you balance these things?

1:01:32 You have a family, you have a full professional life. How do you tackle time management? What's a typical day look like and how do you partition your time so that you have time for all of these things? Yeah, thanks, larry, for going back to that question, because I think it's an important, important topic. Before I went back to business school, I was probably just like everybody else and where most people might say, if you ask them how are things going, the knee jerk stock answer is to say, oh, I'm so busy. But I truly believe that we're not all really that busy, right, we find time to binge watch TV. Our iPhone will tell us at the end of the week how much time we spent on the phone, right?

1:02:15 So that could be argued that half of that time is probably just wasted. And so when I made the decision to go back to school, I had to find 20 extra hours a week. And I didn't know how I was going to find those 20 extra hours, but I had to find 20 extra hours a week. And I didn't know how I was going to find those 20 extra hours, but I had to find those 20 extra hours. And so I did the program, you know, almost two years. And guess what? I found those 20 extra hours a week. And I said to myself I made a conscious decision when I graduate, I am not giving that time back to the universe, I'm not doing it. So I've made it a point to account for every hour of my day. That doesn't mean that I don't binge, watch TV or sit and scroll on my phone. I do all of that, but I'm very conscious of what I'm doing, and so when I graduated, I said I wanted to do something with those 20 hours, and so it allowed me to really lean into some hobbies that I never really truly explored.

1:03:10 I love writing. I was a journalism major in undergrad, and so I started writing more. I started publishing blogs. When I felt like I had something to say, I shared it with the world. I also had a strong interest in teaching at the collegiate level, and so I started an adjunct professor role at Fordham University in the Gabelli School of Business. So I did that, and then I leaned into some other interests. I started collecting art and, I think, most importantly, I was really intentional about the time that I spend with my family, and, as a matter of fact, I last year, during spring break, I wanted to be present with my family.

1:03:57 So what did I do? For the first time in my career, I toggled email off of my phone, and I did not. I did not email, I did not think about work. I was present with my family. I needed to recharge my battery and so it was liberating, and it really actually shows you how, in the grand scheme of things, how insignificant we all are, to work, work will keep going, are to work right, work will keep going right, and so while we're there, we need to do a great job, but if we're not there, the business isn't going to implode. We all probably think that we're probably a little bit more important than we are, but the reality is we're probably very important in terms of the work that we do every day at our individual companies, but the reality is we're probably more important to our families and to our friends.

1:04:51 Didn't you take flying lessons too? Didn't you try to become a pilot somewhere in that window? Well, yeah, that's another aspiration that I have, and I did take a bunch of flying lessons. I am okay with the fact that I probably will never get my pilot's license, and so I am okay with being an aviation enthusiast. So I know many things about airplanes and I'd like to think that if they come over the loudspeaker and they say, hey, is there a pilot in this airplane? Right. Could you land it in an emergency? I probably couldn't land it, but I would definitely try if I was the last option.

1:05:32 I'm with you on that. On my 40th birthday I also took flying lessons and continued for a little bit, but I am far away from the notion of saying I will ever get a pilot's license of any degree at this point. But yes, I think I've tried flight simulator enough where I could probably maybe if someone said hey, everyone else on, everyone else on 200 people on this plane cannot fly this plane, could you? all right, maybe I have to talk me down a little bit. But who do you collect? Art wise, who? do you collect art wise? Oh, I mainly collect. I started collecting during the pandemic, so back in 2021, I mainly collect African and African-American artists, many of which reside on the continent of Africa.

1:06:16 Many people in my collection are emerging artists. So you know, first of all, I buy the things that I think will look beautiful in my home. First of all, I buy the things that I think will look beautiful in my home and then, secondarily, I think about if there's going to be any incremental value there. But a handful of artists I don't know if you know them, but some of the pieces that I'm very proud of I have. I collect an artist named Austin Uzor. He is from Africa as well. I collect an artist named Ojo Ayatunde I'm probably messing up his last name and they're just really great emerging artists.

1:06:58 And then I have a couple of really great prints one from an artist named Rashid Johnson. He's an incredible black artist. His work trades for incredible amounts of money, so I only have a print in my collection, but still I love it nonetheless. And then I also have an artist in my collection named Kintura Davis. Again, her works go for an incredible amount of money, so I'm lucky enough to have a print in my collection as well. That's great. I mean, unlike yourself. I mean I'm not obviously collecting artists of that magnitude. I try to do the same, but on a much lesser degree. My artists mainly come from when I go to Comic-Con, from artists that I know there.

1:07:42 I've gotten to know a number over the years, so I collect their prints as well. Larry Samuels, you're a big art collector as well? are you not huge, huge? You guys are philistines I can't help it. I have a bruce concert print on my wall over here. There you go, look everyone, everyone has a hobby everyone has a hobby. It's a great hobby to have too. Um, you still view yourself as a trailblazer. I don't know if I see myself as a trailblazer, I see myself as a builder, um, but most importantly, I think the thing that I'm most proud of is is I'm a person that loves to give people opportunity. Right, and I think about people who and I say a bunch giving people opportunity to gain access where they otherwise wouldn't have that access.

1:08:28 And so if you just hear me say that, you might think, oh well, maybe Brian wants to help people that look like him, but the reality is is that access does not, does not have a color. Right, there are, there are plenty of people that under index on on access, and so I look forward to giving people access, and I think, from a trailblazing standpoint, I'd probably lean more into that term as far as helping young people and helping other people get into and succeed in this business. I'm going to throw one of your own quotes back at you because I want you to talk about it a little bit. But we often talk on this program about how, a lot of times, our careers define us right, and one of your quotes that you wrote is none of us are defined by what we do.

1:09:19 Rather, we are defined by how we take the opportunity to make a difference no-transcript. And so when you're defined by what you do, there may come a time where you're on the sidelines, and if you are only defined by that job, you're going to be lost.

1:10:03 Yeah, you're lost, you're going to be in a bad place. And so, for me, I tried not to just think about myself as an advertising or business person. I think I'm a leader as it relates to business. I'm a leader first and then, like I said before, you have to have, you have to do a great job in order to have political capital to help make change. And so I think about I'd love to be defined as someone who helped lead this business in a much better place than when I got to it. And if that's my legacy in the business, I don't think anybody's going to care about how many billions I've helped generate for companies.

1:10:44 I think people will care about how many lives I've helped to impact and how many people I've helped give opportunity to. Well, as somebody who has worked alongside you and has been your friend for many years, I can certainly say that you have done exactly that, and it's certainly something that you should be incredibly proud of, and I can honestly say that watching your journey for me has been a great pleasure, just to see what you've done and to see how you've put everything together. So with that, brian, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. I appreciate the time today. So that was Brian Norris, and I sometimes feel like I use the word remarkable too often on this program, but I don't know what other word to use to describe that conversation.

1:11:31 I've known Brian for a very long time. I've had the pleasure of seeing a very big part of his journey and it really has been remarkable. Larry Shea, what are your thoughts? Yeah, so many juicy nuggets to chew on there. I mean, it's just life advice too, right? Not just professional advice, but things you could take into your personal life and use. He understood that as a growing man going to college he needed some discipline, and football instilled that. It allowed him to organize his life and kind of put things together to get where he needed to go, and I think that helped him throughout his career. He also made the conscious decision early in his career path to become an extrovert.

1:12:12 Like. What a choice, you know. Like. I'm a little introverted. Right, like to just change your personality, like that. I mean how admirable. But that he knew and realized that he needed that piece to go further in his career. I just found that fascinating. And the time management part, you know, like that he gets an MBA in his spare time because that's what people do, you know. But he it took him about 20 hours a week in that. When he was done with that, after a few years he chose not to give that time back and that is fascinating that he would use it to paint or to do whatever the hell else he wanted. I just it's so admirable and he takes so many like simple things that you can apply to your life as well, so really commendable.

1:12:59 The one thing I found so remarkable by this conversation was the blueprint to become a leader. And and becoming a leader doesn't simply mean you know that you have all the answers. Frankly, to be a real and becoming a leader doesn't simply mean you know that you have all the answers. Frankly, to be a real leader, it means you probably don't have all the answers, and what you need to do is surround yourself with people who can give you those answers or who have those answers. Their strengths can help to make up for your deficiencies, and that means checking your ego, and that means embracing the fact that you don't know everything. I mean, let's be honest, you know he went from leading small groups to now essentially leading a small army at this point, so you know you're not going to know everything and also what it means to understand how to build a team A man who was from a team now has to build teams.

1:13:59 Absolutely, and the word that just came to me as we were talking is authenticity. Brian talked about how you have to be authentic as a leader and how you have to be authentic as a person, and Brian is one of the most authentic, straightforward and honest people you'll ever meet. And you know he also has the confidence and the self-awareness to keep his ego in check. You know, I've seen, you know, more than one instance in his career where he needed to put his ego in check. I've seen more than one instance in his career where he needed to put his ego in a drawer in order to move forward and accomplish his deeper and broader vision, and he was able to do that, and not a lot of people can, and that just shows what type of person he is his makeup, his self-confidence and everything else.

1:14:45 So, brian, this has really been a great conversation. It's been a great pleasure for me, as I mentioned earlier, to be a part of your journey, and thank you so much for joining this episode of no Wrong Choices. We also thank you for joining us. If this episode made you think of an inspiring person in your life who could be a great guest, please send us a note via the contact page of our website at norongchoicescom. We also encourage you to connect with us on LinkedIn, instagram, youtube, facebook X and Threads On behalf of Tushar Saxena, larry Shea and me. Larry Samuels, thank you again and always remember there are no wrong choices on the road to success, only opportunities, because we learn from every experience.