Joey Conza: What It Takes to Thrive Inside the Courtroom

Welcome And Joey’s Work Today

Larry Samuels 0:00

Now joining No Wrong Choices is the veteran trial attorney and public defender Joey Conza. Joey is currently the director of litigation strategy at Duban Research and Consulting, as well as a longtime friend of mine. Joey, or should I say, Counselor? Thank you so much for joining us.

Joey Conza 0:20

Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Larry Samuels 0:22

That is uh an inside joke of sorts. I think I have started every single conversation I've had with Joey Conza for the past 25 years with the greeting, counselor! So it sort of felt appropriate.

Joey Conza 0:35

Yes, and and prior to you know, caller ID and the like, that was how I knew it was you. Now, you know, that surprise was ruined by you know, you always know who's calling you as long as they're in your contact. So so it was it was very special back then. Yeah.

Tushar Saxena 0:51

Now it's totally meaningless .

Larry Samuels 0:56

So you could pull the phone away from your ear, you know it's coming, the excitement is all about. Well, Joey, we like to start all of our conversations by giving uh our guests the opportunity to tell us who they are and what they do in their own words. I can go through a list and a description, but it is not as genuine or real as what you're gonna set up for it. So take it away.

Joey Conza 1:21

You know, there's no any one thing I do. So to try to distill it into one thing, I basically do whatever uh needs to be done to help someone achieve success in the setting of a trial, whether it's a criminal or a civil trial, whatever assistance they need. Just a few weeks in, someone needed me to draft a cross-examination, someone needed help with jury selection, someone needed help with uh devising a theory of defense on a case. So it really runs the gamut of you know support for folks that are about to engage in the art of trial.

Larry Shea 1:58

Very good. Hey, Larry Shea, really nice to meet you, Joey. Thanks for joining us. Um, we're gonna dig into all of all of that. Um, but I have the uh the privilege of bringing you way

Growing Up Arguing For Fairness

Larry Shea 2:07

back to the beginning. So I will ask it this way um were you an argumentative child?

Joey Conza 2:13

You seem like that now. I was the youngest of four. I always felt I had to advocate for myself, and so I did advocate for myself before I advocated for others. Yeah, for sure. At an early age, I could still remember, you know, my mom, you know, saying things like, oh, he's always got to argue his case, he's always got to put his case together, whether it was, you know, trying to not get punished for something or you know, not get in trouble for starting a fight with one or more of my siblings. So yes. Uh advocacy started very early. There you go. Um, yeah. And I always kept the receipts, you know, a common argument of mine. If I started trouble with one of my siblings, I'd be like, Well, you know, three weeks ago she did X, Y, or Z. And people would be like, What? That's three weeks ago, but I remembered, you know.

Tushar Saxena 3:10

I always did that with my parents too. It never worked, but I did it in the lab. Joey, I'm too sure. Joey, too sure. Thank you once again for joining us. Really appreciate it. Um, did your parents see at a young age that you were proud that this was probably the path for you?

Joey Conza 3:24

Yeah, I don't know if it was my, you know, again, like my mom or maybe one of my aunts saying, you know, like, oh, he should be a lawyer. So, you know, part of it was um, you know, I talked way too much as a kid, much to the dismay of virtually every relative. So yes, I, you know, I heard that refrain often of like, oh, he should be a lawyer. He's always talking, you know.

Tushar Saxena 3:44

What about at school? Were you that way at school as well?

Joey Conza 3:47

Oh, yes. Talked too much there too. You know, you say the argument that never worked at home. It never worked at school. If I got in trouble for doing something, the argument of, well, he did that too, you know, it took years to figure out that that argument does not work. I tried it for a very long time and uh it doesn't work. Yeah, got I got in trouble a lot in school until I figured out how to not get in trouble.

Larry Samuels 4:11

That that is exactly where I was gonna head next. So, you know, high school, um, I imagine you were a character because I know many of the characters who you were surrounded by. Um would people be surprised that you eventually became uh a litigator and a trial attorney?

Joey Conza 4:31

I'd say no, uh, as far as like, you know, uh being a lawyer and yeah, even being a trial attorney. But I'd have to guess that people would be surprised that I was a public defender for as long as I was. That, you know, that's a particular type of person. And I don't know that people that, you know, maybe didn't know me as well that they realized I was um, you know, so far left. And like really believed in the cause, which I did. I mean, I really believed in it. I st you know, I still do, even though I'm not doing that anymore. Um, so I think folks might have been surprised about that particular category of trial attorney.

Larry Samuels 5:08

Um but not that you eventually wound up using your mouth for a living.

Joey Conza 5:13

No, no, definitely not. Uh definitely not.

Larry Shea 5:17

So um, you know, we think of lawyers as very bright people. Were you a good student?

Joey Conza 5:21

I was. I probably could have been better because I but I chose, and it was a pretty, you know, conscious decision. I chose to to have fun and do other things, you know. I could have spent more I definitely could have spent more time and gotten, you know, even better grades. But I really loved, you know, um playing sports and I really loved hanging out with my friends and being social. You know, I always liked being around people. I did like to be the center of attention, uh, let's face it. So yeah, I definitely, you know, I took a step down in how well I did, but I I had a great time. You know, I had a great time in high school, college, law school. I really did. And I, you know, I I wouldn't have done anything differently as far as that goes.

Tushar Saxena 6:05

So that kind of being social and you know, uh I'd say refining those skills of interpersonal skills, whether it be on athletic teams, whether it be as you said, you just in your own social circles, how did that help to shape you uh, you know, moving forward in your own legal career?

Joey Conza 6:21

Yeah, I think, you know, I always enjoyed as you know, as much as I loved my close friends and my family, I always loved meeting new people, meeting people that were not like me, meeting people from, you know, different backgrounds and whatever. And you know, learning about people and especially people that are different from you, uh, for in whatever way definitely helped me relate to my clients when I became a public defender because it was a whole, you know, those were people that I otherwise would not have met. I had some similarities, but uh as far as you know, growing up with not a lot of money, I had that similarity. But otherwise, you know, people I represented were not like me. And so just meeting people um just generally like definitely helped me uh relate to who my clients would be. And also then, you know, being able to talk to strangers when I'm picking a jury.

Tushar Saxena 7:13

What were your big sports in high school?

Joey Conza 7:15

Uh I played on the football team and then, yeah, just you know, for fun outside of school, played a lot of basketball um and played a lot of roller hockey.

Tushar Saxena 7:25

Right, right.

Joey Conza 7:27

I mean, you have to understand I grew up at a time when the Islanders, you know, won four Stanley Cups in a row. So hockey was a good one. Um, you know, some of those players lived in our neighborhoods. I mean, they were around, they didn't make a lot of money back then, so they were just around. Yeah, so roller hockey was a big part of after school.

Larry Samuels 7:47

So roller hockey, high school football, uh, character, able to have a conversation. So uh eventually you've got to figure out okay, what's

Choosing Law And Criminal Defense

Larry Samuels 7:58

next? When did um the law or becoming a lawyer sort of uh show up on your radar screen? Like I know you went to Delaware. Um, did you go to Delaware thinking that the law was gonna be part of her future or not yet?

Joey Conza 8:14

Yeah, I think uh yeah, I mean the plan was always to go to law school after college, whether it was gonna be right after or, you know, I did take a year in between. I, you know, wound up. But um yeah, I think I knew, you know, before college that I was gonna go to law school. I wanted to be a lawyer. So um yeah, so I did, you know, God, it's hard to think about when that was. I guess at some point in high school I knew I was, you know, my plan was to go to law school.

Tushar Saxena 8:40

And I remember being around was there was there some incident in high school that's what you were able to kind of like talk your way out of that that said, okay, wait, I would have to be a lawyer.

Joey Conza 8:50

You know, it's funny. If I'd say I think uh eighth grade, uh eighth grade social. Yeah, eighth grade social studies, we did a mock trial, and I was one of the lawyers in the mock trial. Um it was like sort of this, you know, it was one teacher that did this, not every eighth grade social studies teacher did it. And it was sort of um, you know, I don't know that it was like this momentous assignment, but for me, I was like, I I loved it. I thought it was great, you know.

Larry Samuels 9:19

Do you remember what you were arguing over?

Joey Conza 9:22

I vaguely do think they're yeah. I think somebody stole something in like a nursing home. Was it you, not one of your friends? I would no, I was representing the person who was accused of stealing the thing. Uh the name of the nursing home was the old folks home. You know, a lot of fun really went into the uh the characters' names and the names of the uh locations. But uh yeah, no, that definitely had an impact on me. Um and also I think, too, like growing up with not a lot of money and having like legal things pop up of wanting to be the person in the family that knew what to do. Um, I felt that responsibility at an early age. Like, hey, we need someone in this family that knows stuff, knows the law, knows how the world works. Was your family full of criminals? No, fortunately, no. But um, well, you know, there's a joke that uh people that become prosecutors were too afraid to commit crimes, and people that become public defenders were too uh, or excuse me, prosecutors too afraid to become cops, public defenders too afraid to commit the actual crimes themselves.

Tushar Saxena 10:38

So when you're when you're in Delaware now for for college, and you know at this point that you're on your track to to go to law school, what was what were the college years like?

Joey Conza 10:47

College was great. I loved college. I did have a lot of fun, but I also loved like the academics of it. And since I knew I was going to law school, it was sort of less important. Uh it's not like medical school where you have to study certain things to go to medical school. For law school, you can really major in anything and still go to law school.

Tushar Saxena 11:02

Yeah.

Joey Conza 11:02

So I really took advantage of that freedom and took courses, a variety of courses and you know, a variety of disciplines. And I loved it. I just I loved it. I um you know, I wound up realizing that I love art history classes, you know. I took however many credits of that, if I saved up like all my electives and took a bunch of those classes. I loved anthropology. Um, you know, so I really took advantage of that. I I did take it seriously until my last semester. Um an example of how I didn't take it seriously was I pulled an all-nighter not to study for an exam, but to finish uh a Sega hockey tournament. Oh, that's right.

Tushar Saxena 11:44

That makes way more sense.

Joey Conza 11:45

And I actually and I kept winning, so I was actually like late for a final because I had to finish the tournament.

Larry Shea 11:53

We could just make a podcast on this alone, probably, but I'll tell you right now. Sega 94, Sega 94. 94 Husky is the greatest thing. Let's move on with the career if we can.

Tushar Saxena 12:03

Um, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Larry Shea 12:05

No, no worries. Um But so as you're you're reaching graduation from Delaware, you have to make decisions about law school. You had no idea what type of law you wanted to study at this point.

Joey Conza 12:16

Uh I knew that I was really only interested in criminal law.

Tushar Saxena 12:20

Okay.

Joey Conza 12:20

At the time I thought, well, I could be a prosecutor or a defense attorney. I'm just interested in criminal law. At some point, I became like, you know, I don't know, maybe I was always a lefty, but I I became a lefty at some point. Was like, there's no way I'm gonna prosecute anybody. I want to do defense, you know.

Larry Shea 12:36

Right. And and what was the decision to go to um your particular law school? You went to um Cardozo School of Law, is that right?

Joey Conza 12:45

Yes.

Larry Shea 12:45

Cool. What what was that decision like?

Joey Conza 12:47

So that decision was, you know, I had a great time being at Belvar and being away from you know home for a few years, but I wanted to come back to New York and I specifically wanted to be in Manhattan. So I really just applied to you know a handful of schools in Manhattan. Um, and Cardozo gave me the most money, frankly, is why I went there. Um I also was glad that they had really good clinical programs so you could get like some real world experience um while you're still a student. Um But really it was a big financial decision, you know. I put myself through college, and so I didn't, which is why I took that year in between college and law school. I didn't have, you know, didn't have a lot of money at all. So I needed to like bank some money for a year. And then yeah, they gave me the biggest scholarship. So it's like, okay, this is where I'm gonna go.

Larry Samuels 13:31

What did you do in the year in between college and in between law school? What how how did you save up all that money to move forward?

Joey Conza 13:39

Yeah, so I, you know, I had already been working in restaurants for a few years, so I just grinded, you know, I had a bunch of jobs at the same time. I just worked in restaurants for that year and banked as much cash as I could. And um, yeah. Um yeah, I mean, I started working in restaurants in, you know, I guess ninth or tenth grade, somewhere around there. And that was always like my yeah, I always enjoyed the work. Again, a lot of people meeting people, and yeah, just banked what I could and studied for the LSAT.

Paying For Law School And Internships

Tushar Saxena 14:11

I have a few friends who uh obviously who are obviously lawyers as well. For actually one who is a Cardozo alum like you, he always talked about his time at school and what it meant to do internships. What are internships like when you're a when you know you're gonna go down the criminal law track? But I mean, and as a public defender or as a defender, as a uh you know, as a litigator and a defender, what does that kind of uh a track look like?

Joey Conza 14:33

If you just want to get criminal experience, you'll take an internship in a public defender's office or even a prosecutor's office just to get you know the experience.

Tushar Saxena 14:40

Did you do that? Did you go the prosecutor route first, or was it always I will be a public defender?

Joey Conza 14:45

So I actually did not. So, you know, it was an interesting time. Now I think they uh, you know, internships are mostly unpaid, especially like in the public sector, whether it's the DA's office or a public defender's office. But now they'll give like stipends from like your school or some other public interest uh like fund so that you will get paid. Um I couldn't afford to do an unpaid internship. So uh that first summer between first and second year, I did a paid intern, paid basically a part-time job with uh a landlord tenant attorney represented landlord. So completely not related to what I wanted to do.

Tushar Saxena 15:21

Awesome. You were representing slumlords, not exactly inspiring work.

Joey Conza 15:26

Making making sure people got evicted, you know. Oh my god. Um's work, God's work, yeah. Um, but I needed to make money, so I did that between first and second year. And then between second and third year, um, I wound up doing a paid internship in the Army Jag office up at Fort Drum in upstate New York. And I got to do both prosecution and defense there, so that was good. And uh, you know, that was a wild experience too. I mean, I I had a great time. I knew I didn't want to do it like for real, three or four-year commitment after law school, but it was a great summer internship.

Tushar Saxena 16:03

Just for just for you know clarification for those who don't know, Jag is the judge advocate general. And what does that mean, what does that really mean?

Joey Conza 16:09

So basically it's like, you know, their legal department, they they have prosecutors that prosecute crimes that happen on on the uh army post. Um they have defense attorneys to defend, you know, people that are charged with crimes. And then they have like a tort section for like things that go wrong and you know, like like a slip and fall, but like, you know, military. In fact, the su right before I started that summer, someone got decapitated by a helicopter. Uh the pilot didn't lock the stick when they landed, and so the helicopter tilted, and as the soldier exited, he got decapitated. So yeah, that's the kind of thing, might have to deal with that.

Larry Samuels 16:46

That was a case that you were working on, or or I didn't work on that case.

Joey Conza 16:50

I just that happened like right before I got there. But that certainly would turn into a case. Um I just worked on basically like their criminal trials or court martials. Um and their juries consist of officers, whether they're non-commissioned or commissioned officers. Yeah. A lot of um unfortunately, yeah, a lot of crime in the uh in the military, especially at the bigger posts like uh Fort Bragg and Fort Hood. Yeah.

Authenticity And Temperament At Trial

Larry Shea 17:15

Interesting. Um I wanna I want to get a feel for for temperament a little bit. You do you think that it takes a certain kind of temperament to become a lawyer, or can anybody with their given personality do this job well? Or does it take a certain type of of person to do this job well?

Joey Conza 17:34

No, I don't think it takes a particular temperament. I think, you know, I've seen all different styles. Obviously, I have my own style and they're all effective in their own way.

Larry Shea 17:43

What's your style?

Joey Conza 17:45

I think I'm pretty chill until I till maybe there's a reason not to be chill. Um although I try to have this disparity between me and the witness. Like if the witness is getting louder and more aggressive, I will actually get softer. So for the jury, it's like a bigger difference between the two of us. But no, I, you know, look, have I seen people try to be trial attorneys that are afraid to talk in public? Yes. And obviously that doesn't work. That's not temperament, right? That's just like um but no, yeah, there's people that are who they are and they're loud and you know, bombastic. And then there's, you know, people that are, you know, you can be quiet and be really effective. You have to read the room, you know, to know who your audience is. You know, if it's just you and a judge and the prosecutor, there's no jury, that's a different thing than if there's a jury there. And then knowing what your jury's like that you've just, you know, tried to select. The biggest thing is, and this, you know, be obvious, but you just have to be you. If you try to do somebody else's style, it will not work. I watch people on trial as much as I can. We steal things from each other all the time. Big data.

Larry Shea 18:54

Big dateline fan, are you?

Joey Conza 18:58

Sure. Uh yeah. I mean, I'll watch a dateliner a 48-hour. Yeah. But even if I steal something from somebody, I still have to do it my way. I can't do it the way they did it. People can see right through the lack of authenticity, you know.

Larry Samuels 19:12

That's really interesting. You know, I'm I'm imagining, as I think about the authenticity part, like, and I I I was going to get to all this stuff later on, but as long as we're here, you know, when you have to read a room, when you're doing a trial and and you're being authentic and you're raising your voice, lowering your voice, picking up different, different energies and vibes. Can you tell what what a jury wants to hear in terms of an approach? Like, how would you change your behavior or your approach based upon who's in the jury box or what you've learned about who's in the jury box?

Joey Conza 19:46

You know, the biggest thing I think is like you have to have credibility, you know? And so hopefully during the process of like selecting the jury, and really you're deselecting, right? You're knocking off people. You don't get to like say, oh, we'll keep that person because the other side could knock them off. But um, hopefully during that process, you've recognized, you know, what arguments are gonna work and which which ones won't. So as you're doing that, you know, then yeah, you're gonna know. Like, I alright, I can argue this without losing credibility. And then there's other times where you have to realize what do I have to concede in order to maintain the credibility? You know, because sometimes you have to concede things that you try not to concede anything as the defense, but sometimes you have to um to maintain credibility. That was a big part of like the last trial I did before I left my other office. Um, you know, we weren't fighting the whole case, we were fighting a big particular section of it. And so we had to concede a lot of things, and I think it was important.

Tushar Saxena 20:49

So as a trial attorney, as a litigator, is a litigator slash trial attorney an actor, and then the other portion of that is how do you gain and how do you build that trust with a jury?

Joey Conza 21:02

You know, during the jury selection process, it's just a matter of um as much as I'm trying to read them and see who they are, I'm also trying to read their reactions to me. And so that's the only way I know I'm gonna be able to like get them to buy what I'm selling, right? Right. So so then I'll go back to my original question.

Tushar Saxena 21:20

Are you an actor or are you a poker player?

Joey Conza 21:22

You know, honestly, when I try a case, I get to the regardless of what the realistic version of the facts are. By the time I try cases, by the time I get to the end of it, I really think I'm right and like we're gonna win. So it doesn't feel like acting because I truly, you know, it's like George Costanza, it's not a lie if you believe it, right? I really believe it and that, you know, by the time I get to that point. Could I could somebody fake that and you know act that way? Maybe. But I I've never really felt like I was in that position. I always felt like I really believed in my case at that point. But if you don't, then yeah, you better be able to fake. It really well. I mean, they're not going to believe something if you don't, you know what I mean? So yeah, I mean, there's certainly a performance aspect to trying a case, right? Like, you know, like an actor.

Larry Shea 22:11

Do you get nervous? Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because my biggest concern would be to make a mistake, right? Like you have someone's life in your hands and you're like, I would just do good lawyers think about don't make a mistake here. Yeah. Screwing up. Yeah.

Joey Conza 22:26

Screwing up. Sure. I mean, you know, look, um, I've look, my my first sort of motivation for anything is like, I just don't want to make an ass of myself, right? Um that's like, you know, that's step one, right? But then obviously you want to get to a point where you're excelling at this thing, you know. So yeah, early on, I was like, I just don't want to, you know, yeah, make a mistake. I just don't want to make an ass of myself. But uh, that can't be the end goal, right? Right. You have to get to a point where you're actually excelling at this thing and you're you're making a difference, you know. I've won cases that anybody could have won, you know, a monkey could have won. They were my cases to lose. For me, the most special thing are the handful of cases that I won because I was the lawyer. Like somebody else would not have won this case. Like those are meaningful wins. And that all to me, that all comes from preparation. So, and that always helped me be less nervous too, right? The better prepared I was, then the less nervous I'm going. I'm still gonna be nervous, but it's like playing a sport in like football. Once you take that first hit, the nerves are gone, you know. So for trial, you know, once you start, you're like, okay, I'm good, I got this,

Defending Guilty Clients The Right Way

Joey Conza 23:36

you know.

Larry Samuels 23:36

So your first gig was as a a public defender, is that right? Yes. And that was with who?

Joey Conza 23:42

That was at the Legal Aid Society in Manhattan.

Larry Samuels 23:45

So that leads me to a follow-up uh uh from what we were just talking about. So believing um that you you you can convince yourself to believe anything and and you're going to you know win the case, the whole Costanza thing. So what I'm wondering about is being a public defender, working for the Legal Aid Society, and being put into a position where you are assigned a case that you don't necessarily believe in or you believe the person is guilty, uh perhaps. I mean, how do you handle that type of a situation?

Joey Conza 24:22

Yeah, well, that that's the most common question, like at a cocktail party of like, how do you represent somebody and now who's guilty? You know? Yeah, to me that never really entered into the equation because the it the point isn't did they do this or not do this? The point is can the government prove it? And can the government prove it with uh you know, lawfully obtained evidence? Like that's that's the question, right? So I and I know that's like well, it's technical, that's a canned answer, but that really is what it is, you know. Like the whole point of our system is that they have to prove it. Yeah, you know, and so it tells me that's what I'm saying.

Tushar Saxena 25:02

The actual job is to not prove them innocent, but to prove but to prove the government or the the the case against them that it's flawed.

Joey Conza 25:11

Yeah, absolutely. Look, philosophically, right? You can have a system where uh guilty people never get off, but innocent people get convicted left and right. Or you could have a system that's like super like overly cautious, and then no one ever gets convicted because it's like this really high standard of proof, right? And you know, our system is like it's we we try to minimize innocent people getting convicted because that's worse than a guilty person going free, right? I think most people would probably agree with that. And regardless of our system, innocent people get convicted all the time, right? You hear these stories, people do 30 years and then they're exonerated and whatever, whatever, you know. But yeah, at the end of the day, it's like it's it's their case to prove. And I will happily defend, you know, if I'm being intellectually honest, I should be able to defend anyone charged with anything and hold the prosecution to their burden. You know, the government has this tremendous power and hold them to their burden. And I feel good about it.

Larry Samuels 26:11

Have you ever been conflicted or passed on a case?

Joey Conza 26:14

No. No, I've thought about is there a case out there that I would not want to do? There probably is, and I just by luck or happenstance, just didn't get any of those. Uh, but no, look, I've yeah, I mean, I definitely had cases where like, yeah, the guy did it, or he probably did it, but like, so what?

Preparation Habits That Reduce Fear

Tushar Saxena 26:33

All right, so I want to ask about this notion of preparedness. And uh, I agree, like, you know, but for anything, uh, you know, if you're gonna if you're gonna play football, the idea of watching game film and then getting into the game itself, that's that's being prepared. So for me, when I think of like preparedness for lawyers, I think of like, you know, a few good men. We're gonna get a box of blue pens, we're gonna get a box of a box of black pens, we're gonna get 25 uh 25 legal pens, and then we're gonna write all our questions down, and then we'll go, you know, we'll go through any scenario that happens. Is that what you guys do?

Joey Conza 27:03

Yeah, I mean, look, I I I always I always want to be prepared for the worst case scenario. I also always want to be the most prepared person in the room. I want to know the case better than anyone, know like, you know, the evidence, all the like the documents and exhibits and discovery that's been shared. I want to know it better than everyone. I want to know what I legal issues that I think will come up. I want to know that better than anyone. So yeah, I mean, it's um it's that whole process of preparing for the worst. And the worst really often doesn't happen, surprisingly. Um, but I'm ready for it. And I don't think, yeah, I can't think of a time where I was like, oh shit, completely caught off guard by something. Um, if anything, pleasantly surprised that the prosecutor didn't do something I thought they would have done and something I would have done if I was the prosecutor. Yeah, I mean, that happens surprisingly.

Larry Shea 27:55

Talk about your clients. Talk about seeing some of these people on their very worst day, or if it's a victory, I guess their best day.

Joey Conza 28:03

Yeah, nothing sweeter than a victory. Although, you know, I the worst, the worst thing I can have is somebody I feel who's like actually innocent because the pressure is tremendous. It's really just if there's, you know, unfortunately I haven't lost any of those cases, but it's just relief rather than joy. Um because it's just a tremendous amount of pressure if you feel like, oh my God, not only did, you know, like this case is shit, but this person didn't do anything. That's a tremendous amount of pressure. That's sort of the worst, the worst scenario.

Larry Samuels 28:38

So let's just dig into the legal aid society a little bit and start to follow the journey forward. Well, that's why I want to ask these questions, because uh I know some of these stories. So can you tell us just an example of the type of crime you might be defending somebody uh for or of? For example, stealing a garbage truck, perhaps, for from what I remember.

Joey Conza 29:08

Yeah. So in the early in the early days, you know, you start off just doing misdemeanors, which is, you know, that's how it should be. You just start off with like minor things. So uh your first case wasn't a capital murder case. No. No. Although I will tell you, over time, the kind of case you get, uh, like the level of seriousness, it goes to less and less experienced attorneys, just because people offices are getting younger. And uh so offices are forced to give people cases like sooner than they used to. And also there's just fewer cases being tried. So you could have somebody who really hasn't tried a serious felony, or all of a sudden they're trying an attempted murder as their first trial. Whereas that never happened when I was, you know, younger because you just got a lot more experience. There were just more cases and more trials. But um yeah, so early on, yeah, I mean, a lot of shop lifts. Um, yeah, just like a lot of, you know, petty minor assaults, so misdemeanor assaults and stuff like that. I see, yeah. The first case I tried um was a guy who was trying to get away. Uh, he was a scoff law, I guess, and he was trying to get away from the sheriffs. And so there was like a car stopped, and traffic had the window like halfway rolled down, and he dove into the backseat of that car. And at first the driver didn't realize it and drove off. And then the uh sheriffs were trying to grab him out of the car. And the guy, you know, the guy in the car rolled the window up and he was stuck in the window. And then what he was charged with ultimately was resisting arrest. And then when they finally got him out, he followed the officers and and it was all on video. That was the very early days, too. Like now, obviously, everything's on video, but that was like new at the time, like, oh God, everything's on video. But yeah, so minor stuff in the beginning. And then, you know, the next step from there was uh I tried a lot of drug sales. They were felonies. So, like my first felonies were like trying a lot of drug sales, maybe some grand larcenies, which is like people using someone else's credit card or stealing someone's credit card. Um, but the drug sales were always fun, they were always winnable. It's a really low-tech operation that NYPD had. Now they have like 4K video, so you know, those are the things. Yeah, good luck. Not so winnable anymore. But also knowing, you know, back then people would face, they were facing like heavy prison sentences for selling like a nickel bag of crack. You could get four and a half to nine years back then. Now, if you you know, anybody selling drugs now, it's like you get a program or you get probation, or you which is this is you know better, obviously. But back then, yeah, people were facing big sentences for minor drug sales. So we tried a lot of those and we'd win a lot of those.

Tushar Saxena 31:44

Was your motivation always as even as a younger kid? Obviously, you were the youngest of your own siblings. So that notion of you know, being the underdog, wanting to stick up for yourself, did that was that like a major motivation for you to become a criminal defense turn?

Joey Conza 31:59

Yeah, I think the biggest motivation was I just didn't like for me, there are a few things worse than something being unfair. That's not fair, you know? And so as I learned more and more, and I realized like, oh, people that get a public defender get much worse representation than somebody who has money and can hire whoever that bothered me. And I was like, well, I want to be as good as somebody who, you know, gets paid tons of money. So I want these people to get, you know, the best representation they can get, even if they can't pay the attorney. Yeah, so that was probably the biggest motivation. And yeah, I just always had this sense of like fairness, you know, fairness was important.

Larry Shea 32:35

I I'm wondering if you have regrets. I mean, you're stressing me out here. This is I like I'm like, and I I can't imagine going into a court and having someone's like, you know, life in my hands or whatever the case may be. Do you have regrets about any decision you've made in the in the courtroom or you know, I I could have done this better, I should have done that, that kind of a thing?

Joey Conza 32:55

Yeah, you know, I really don't. I could have taken a different route as far as I could have not been a public defender for as long as I was and, you know, made more money. I think in some ways my quality of life and like time, my work life balance would have suffered for that. But no, you're right. I mean, being a public defender is a it's stressful. Um, a lot of people get burnt out a lot sooner than doing it for a lot shorter time than I did. But I always genuinely enjoyed the work. I always found it interesting. I always found it challenging. The law is always changing. No two cases are really the same. Uh, I always believed in the work. I wanted to help people. I helped people every day. And also that it gave me this perspective of, man, I got a pretty good, you know what I mean? And any given day I would meet people that had a much worse quality of life than I had, even on a public defender's salary, right? Um so yeah, I mean, look, I could have made more money for sure, but I also wouldn't have gotten the trial experience that that I've gotten, which has now put me in this position, especially like I said, as the number of trials just keeps going down. Like the art of trial is becoming a lost art. It really is. And there's just not a lot of people with a you know, with a lot of trial experience. So no, no regrets, despite the level of stress. I guess um I've always been a compartmentalizer,

Stress Burnout And Staying Human

Joey Conza 34:18

maybe.

Larry Shea 34:18

Yeah, let's talk about that.

Joey Conza 34:19

The stress didn't take it home with me, right?

Larry Shea 34:21

So you leave it at the office. Um, how did you handle it in the moment? How did you handle the stress of a situation, a bad day, you know, you're not getting along with the judge. Um, you could tell you're losing a jury, like all that anxiety. How did you handle it? Is it just affirmations? Hey, you know what you're doing? Like, how do you handle stress particularly?

Joey Conza 34:42

I think, you know, what I try and and what I tried to do with like the folks that I was like supervising at my last job before I left was I tried to tell them like two important things. One was you have to have a life outside of being a public defender. If you do not, you will not last. And if you do not last, you're not but you're not gonna become as good and effective as you could possibly be. You're not gonna help people to the magnitude that you can, that you could possibly, right? You're not gonna help as many people if you burn out after a couple of years. So you have to have an outside life. If work is your is all you have, you will burn out. So I always have like a nice life outside of work. And, you know, family, friends, playing music, playing sports, you know, just being social in general. That's a big part of it. And the other big part of it for me is I had to be okay with the limit of how much help I could be to somebody. A lot of people come to me and they're broken. They were broken when they got to me. They've had, if they're 25 years old, they had 25 years of a shit life before they came to me. And there's only so much I can do. You know what I mean? Um and I can help you with this particular case, and I can offer you some resources to help you in some other ways outside of this case, but I cannot turn your life around. Only you can do that. I could help facilitate that at best, and I had to be okay with that. And having a difficult case not go your way, I had to be okay with I did all that I could, and that's how it ended. And I can lay my pillow down at the end of the night, and knowing I did all that I could. I didn't do a half-assed job, you know what I mean? Um, and that had to be enough.

Tushar Saxena 36:23

What is the burnout rate or the churn rate for a public defender?

Joey Conza 36:27

If I'd have to guess, or you know, even just anecdotally, it's you know, it's getting shorter over time. I think a lot of reasons though, I think younger people move more geographically, they change jobs more frequently than you know, older generations. And, you know, I don't know if I agree that, you know, there's people like my age are like, yeah, they just built different. Maybe they are. I don't know. You know, this comedian likes to use, like, oh, you know, what makes Gen Xers Gen Xers is when the space shuttle crashed and they brought the TV in to watch the launch and the teachers going in the space shuttle, and then the thing blew up, and they're like, all right, take out your textbooks. We're moving on to math, you know, like we didn't have this discussion of how we felt. And so, um, you know, for better or worse, we just were sort of meant or made to uh, you know, just internalize everything and just keep moving forward, you know. And I'm not saying that's the right way, but I think there probably is some truth to that. And yeah, what is the burnout rate? I feel like the last few years in my old office, you know, it was tough to get people to stay past like year five.

Tushar Saxena 37:35

Wow. Wow. Do you still love the law?

Joey Conza 37:39

Oh, yeah. I still get excited, you know, when something new comes up and it's like that I don't know the answer to. Like, let's look it up, you know, like or you know, if there's if it's sort of uncharted territory, it's like, well, what are we gonna argue to get our our way? You know? Um, you know, there's a lot of gray, right? You know, there's uh very few things that are black and white, you know, in the law. So it's like if there's this gray area, it's like, well, how do we get it our way? Yeah, I'm still as excited about that as I ever

Why The System Still Feels Unfair

Joey Conza 38:06

was.

Larry Shea 38:06

On that note, for sure. On that note, um I it's a good time to ask it then. Is the law fair? I mean, I'm watching Law and Order sometimes and they throw out this, you know, evidence and that evidence because of some little bylaws. There'll be a lot of movie and be very realistic stuff. You know, I don't know if it's real or not. But it's is the is the law fair? I mean, I see, I hear a lot of instances of things of that nature, and you know, we see it, of course, on our TV sets. How real was Ally McPheel? Boston legal. Let's go Boston legal.

Tushar Saxena 38:40

Boston legal, how real is legal.

Joey Conza 38:42

If you want to, if you want to talk about things getting thrown out, right, judges suppress evidence very rarely. Okay. Right. Even when they should, like, I'm like, oh, we should win this case. I'm like, I don't think we will, but like, we should get this gun suppressed. Like, you know, they still don't do it. And then if you're lucky, the appellate court will be like, okay, yeah, that should have been suppressed. But um, no, I mean, the law can't like really the law as written, uh, you know, is it fair as written? Maybe. But as it's interpreted by judges, no, it's not fair. Most judges are severely pro-prosecution. I know what I, you know, I know when I'm gonna lose the suppression hearing. I'm not a complete idiot, you know what I mean? But there's times where I'm like, we should win, and like we don't, you know, like because this judge just doesn't want to like suppress because they just want to help the government at every turn. So, no, it's not fair in that regard. I mean, I I've universally seen, yeah, just judges always looking to help the government. So it doesn't matter what, you know, how fair the law is written. It might be written fairly, but how do you pick a jury?

Jury Selection Starts With Closing Argument

Larry Samuels 39:45

Um And how do I get out of it the next time I'm close to being out of jury? But how do you pick a jury?

Tushar Saxena 39:53

What's that process?

Joey Conza 39:56

Um You know, I'm just speaking of jury duty, real quick. You know, I have a friend who um he thinks, you know, like if you want to be an activist, it's like, you know, you want to march on the street, fine, but that's only gonna get you so far. If you really want to be an activist, you should get yourself on a jury and then just like do the thing that you're whatever your activism is. But I yeah, so do your duty. You know, picking a jury, yeah. So preparing a trial in general is you always start at the end, right? Um, most trial attorneys start at the end. What is my dream closing argument going to be? Thinking about what those arguments are gonna be, what's like, well, now who do I, you know, lurking backwards then, like who do I want? That who's gonna, you know, and who do I not want? Who's not gonna buy this argument? So, you know, strategy-wise, you have to start at the end and think about what's the last thing I'm gonna say to them, and then who's not gonna buy that? And that's what I'm trying to get rid of. So that's like sort of the simplest way I could put it.

unknown 40:50

Yeah.

Joey Conza 40:51

And so then you just build like, what am I gonna ask them about to figure out if they're gonna buy this argument? Um, some judges will let you come really close to what your theme or your theory of defense is and questioning them, and some judges won't, so then you have to figure this roundabout way of how you're gonna ask about that idea. You know, do I want like this really super technical like engineer thinker, or do I not want that guy?

Tushar Saxena 41:17

Is there such a thing as a dream juror?

Joey Conza 41:20

Um well, you know, you need 12 to you need them to all agree for your, you know, for your side, right? So if you're looking for a dream juror, then sometimes, you know, in that situation, if I'm looking for like I'm hoping this to get this one person on the jury, it's because my case is terrible. Like we're going to lose. But if I could find one person to hang up the jury and get a mistrial, that would be great.

Tushar Saxena 41:49

Um so your dream juror is essentially a stick in the mud.

Joey Conza 41:53

Correct. Yes. Yeah. If that's all you have, sometimes it's all you have.

Larry Samuels 41:57

How often do you pick a jury or go through that process, think that you've nailed it and everything goes completely backwards and totally the wrong way?

Joey Conza 42:09

Um, I don't, you know, fortunately, I don't think I've experienced that. Because, like I said, you know, cases where I'm like, man, I really need to win this case. I I fortunately haven't lost any of those. I've been surprised. So we don't always get to talk to the jury afterwards because it's up to them if they want to talk to us, right? I would love to talk to them and see, you know, what went right and what went wrong. Whether I won or lost the case, I'd love to talk to them and, you know, just learn what I can. But we don't always get to. So um it's only the handful of juries that I've spoken to are I'm like, oh man, I had no idea this person was gonna be that person. It's usually somebody who was on my side that I didn't think was going to be. It was usually somebody that like I I wanted to knock off, but I couldn't. You know, like you only get so many challenges, you know. And my you know, I'm surprised to find that they were on my side.

Larry Shea 43:01

Yeah, it's like mind reading almost. Um what's the one?

Joey Conza 43:05

Yeah, I mean, it's it's an art, not a science.

Larry Shea 43:08

Yeah, I mean, you you literally are trying to think what they're thinking. That's

Fourth Amendment And Miranda Advice

Larry Shea 43:13

tough. Yeah. Uh, what's the one piece of legal advice you wish everybody knew?

Joey Conza 43:17

I'm a big Fourth Amendment guy.

Larry Shea 43:19

Okay.

Joey Conza 43:20

So, you know, there's a lot of uh like especially a lot of the stuff that's going on now. Like, you're allowed to walk away. I mean, they have to have a certain quantum of evidence to like seize you, right? They don't have that, man. Just walk away. Don't let them search your car. Don't ever consent to that.

Tushar Saxena 43:36

There you go.

Joey Conza 43:39

I know, but wait, I mean, god duh, the biggest one is like do not waive your Miranda rights. You cannot talk your way out of anything. They're going to still arrest you. Do not talk.

Tushar Saxena 43:50

Right. Shut up is your is your biggest piece of uh four words. I want a lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had my own. Two syllables.

Joey Conza 44:00

Lloyd, you're I had my own sort of wacky experience with that. So we our office represented somebody that was in federal custody and they had to bring them to state court. Um, and so federal agents, marshals had to take them from the federal prison, bring them to state court for a state court appearance, and then bring them back. I'm doing someone a favor by covering this case. It's not my client. I'm like, okay, you know. And uh the social worker on the case was also there because she wanted to see him and make sure he was okay, whatever, whatever. So they they bring him to state court. Um, he does his state court appearance, and they uh then they bring him back to the federal prison. And when they search him to bring him back to the prison, he has contraband. So now the FBI wants to investigate the case and they want to talk to all the people he came in contact with, which of course I'm one of, right? Now I never touched the guy, but the social worker apparently like gave him a hug, which you know, whatever. Um, I mean, like, whatever you think about that. Um, but I never touched him. But nevertheless, like, you know, there was this idea that they were gonna, you know, the prosecutor on the state case calls me up. It's like, look, just giving you a heads up. The FBI are gonna investigate this case, so they're gonna want to talk to you. And I'm like, Jesus, you know. So I just go to another lawyer in my office, and I'm like, look, you gotta represent me. I'm like, I'm not talking to law enforcement. I can't possibly be somebody who doesn't take my own advice.

Tushar Saxena 45:34

Right.

Larry Shea 45:36

So that's great.

Joey Conza 45:38

Uh yeah, long story short, they actually wound up never reaching out to me, but I was ready. I was like, I have a lawyer. I'm ready to say no. I'm like, I obviously didn't give this guy contraband, but like, yeah, I don't know what these motherfuckers are gonna do. You know what I mean? Yep. Like, oh, you're the only one that came in contact with them, and it's like, Jesus, you know.

Tushar Saxena 46:00

How many times were you actually in a courtroom before you won your first case?

Joey Conza 46:05

Oh, yeah, I mean, hundreds, because you know, back then we had so many cases, and even though we weren't, you know, it took a while to get your first trial, you're just in court every day, um, just on pretrial stuff. So, you know, you're even on pretrial stuff, you're on your feet, you're in court. I probably did, you know, a handful or so of suppression hearings. So even though there's no jury there, um, getting, you know, reps at cross-examining witnesses, you know, cops and uh hundreds, you know, which was good. I mean, that's uh, you know, like it was the Wild West in the beginning, but like I got a lot of reps, you know, so did everybody else at that time, you know, you got a lot of reps that that it helped when you did finally try a case. Um, because yeah, it takes about a year to get a case to go to trial.

Tushar Saxena 46:51

So Right the obvious thing that we all kind of realize is that within a courtroom there is an adversarial relationship, right? You you against prosecution, and in many cases, sometimes the judge as well. So, how do you navigate that? How do you how do you kind of navigate that, knowing that in many cases the judge is not really siding with you? And how do you read that room and read that relationship?

Joey Conza 47:12

Yeah, I mean, look, with judges, it's you know being a public defender, the tricky part is I know I'm gonna be in this front of the front of this judge hundreds of times after this moment, right? So it sort of limits you and how far you can go in calling them out on their terribleness. And saying with prosecutors, you know, like you're gonna work with this prosecutor again and again and again and again. So you do have to pick your spots of like how far you're gonna go. Because, yeah, I mean, it's the tricky thing about ethically you have to, you know, zealously advocate for your client, right? But at what point does it become to the detriment of every other client you have or are going to have, right? So that's a tricky thing. But no, I mean, look, you have to call them on their nonsense. And if you have to do it in a more tactful way, because you know you're gonna see them again and again and again, fine, but like you have to do it. Like, yeah, of course that's the right thing to do, but ethically, like you're required to do that. So it's just a matter of managing, you know, managing that, you know, like I said, that thing of knowing you're gonna see them over and over again.

Larry Shea 48:17

So to that end, you almost have to get a scouting report for your for you know your opposing counsel and for the judge in that way, right? And you kind of keep that that tallied so that you know how far you can push certain things.

Joey Conza 48:32

Sure. Yeah, no, I'm and you know, the we uh all of us would always share information with one another. What's so-and-so like, what's this judge like, what's this prosecutor like? What are my chances of getting this out of the judge, getting this offer out of the prosecutor? Is this prosecutor gonna play games and like withhold stuff and whatever, whatever? Are they gonna lie about being ready for trial, but really they're not ready for trial?

Larry Shea 48:55

Interesting game, you know. Yeah. Um, I don't yeah, I don't know about this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Do you know your record? Do you know your record?

Joey Conza 49:03

I was like, you know, I I I actually don't. Um it's a and I think, yeah, and one of my friends who's also a defense attorney said, like um a good win rate for a criminal defense attorney is like it's almost like a good batting average. It's like 300, you know. That's actually a really good question.

Tushar Saxena 49:21

That's that's what I kind of wanted to ask. The notion of the one the win-loss record for like prosecutors birth defender, dearth defense.

Joey Conza 49:29

So I can tell you the can the pro the Manhattan DA's office, their conviction rate in for felonies, so that's like uh Supreme Court, I think it's like 86% or something. You know? Um well, because you know, they can control, they can shit can a case that they think they're gonna lose, right? They just don't, you know, they can let it die on the vine and get dismissed and whatever, whatever. They could, you know, let it die in the grand jury, whatever. So they really only bring cases that they think they're gonna win in my own.

Larry Shea 49:57

So that doesn't work into the metric of a case that they lost if it's just dies on the vine or dismissed. Does that count against them?

Joey Conza 50:09

It yeah. Uh well, you know what? No, it doesn't, because that case doesn't go to trial. It would just get settled, right? Yeah. Or it'll just get dismissed.

Tushar Saxena 50:17

Or just get or just go away, right?

Joey Conza 50:19

Yeah. So there's like a speedy trial rule, and they can just let speedy trial run, the clock runs out, and then the case gets dismissed. Yeah. So a good win rate is like, yeah, like like a 300 batting average.

Larry Samuels 50:29

Uh interesting. Do you have, you know, being in the same office for so long? Yeah. Do you have rivals? Like, like, is there is there somebody on the other side who you see, you know, more often than others, and you're like, I gotta get this guy. I I gotta get this woman. Like, is there somebody out there that is that is your rival?

Joey Conza 50:50

Um no, and not now or not like, you know, toward the end of my time in the public defender's office, but I felt like in the early days, because they also stayed longer than than they do now. So it's very similar. Um, they have a their and actually their attrition rate is worse than the public defender's office, I think. But no, back in the day it was more of also like you're younger, so you have that sort of, you know, it's just a different head. Um but yeah, back then that was definitely a thing. Yeah, because you'd see the same people over and over, and yeah, and you'd be like, ah, that's fucking guy. Oddly enough, I saw um I maybe last year, um, this prosecutor, he actually was on the Trump state case, the state criminal case against Trump. He was one of the prosecutors, and I saw him maybe a year ago, and he's like, Does the name I can't say the name, but he said the name of this woman I represented. He's like, boom, and I'm like, Yes. Basically, all these years later. He and I tried this misdemeanor against each other in 1998, and I won. And he's like, I'll never forget you beat me on my face.

Larry Samuels 52:00

Wow.

Joey Conza 52:02

Excuse me.

Larry Samuels 52:03

That's great.

Favorite Wins And Hard Lessons

Larry Samuels 52:05

Do you have a favorite victory? If if that's the right word to use, yes.

Tushar Saxena 52:11

Or like you picked up your files and you slammed them on the ground with there's definitely like two that come to mind.

Joey Conza 52:23

One was a guy in my office was retiring. He gives me this case. He's like, it's a you know, when people would leave, I would always try and get a trial out of out of their caseload, you know. So he's retiring, and before I can even go to him, he comes to me and says, This case has to be tried, and you're the one to do it. And he's like, and by the way, you must win.

Tushar Saxena 52:44

Oh what?

Joey Conza 52:45

Thank you, no, thank you, no pressure, you know. But no, it's like one of those moments of like, well, you know, you're gonna meet your maker, you know what I mean? Like this, this is it's on you, man. You know what I mean? And um, and so I was like, this is a tremendous amount of pressure, but like that's what I'm here for, you know. Like, if you if we give this to somebody with less experience, it could just be the end of their career. Even if they win, they'll just be so stressed out. What was the case that you had to win? Yeah, so the case was this sweetheart of a man was arrested and charged with um a felony assault for stabbing a resident in a homeless shelter. The client worked at the shelter, he dedicated his entire life to helping homeless people. And the person that he stabbed attacked him. Um, the person had, you know, a really long criminal, you know, sheet and also had, you know, like this thick of like incident reports of being a violent person in the shelter system. Twice the size as my client, and um attacked him. And my client said, you know what, during the attack, you know, uh all these beds are in this in this big space. And as he gets tackled onto the bed, the bed moves and there's a knife there, he picks it up, stabs him one time, that's it, gets him off of him, and that's it's the fight's over. He has no record, my client. And um the Manhattan DA's office is notorious for being terrible with self-defense cases. Uh, they just don't think it ever exists. They lose a lot of them because they don't think it ever exists. And so they refuse to, you know, I I thought they should have dismissed the case one, you know, and I'm sure the attorney that gave me the case felt the same way. But they not only, you know, weren't going to do that, but they also weren't gonna make him a plea offer that would spare him, you know, having a criminal record for the rest of his life. This person with no record and just the sweetheart of a guy trying to help homeless people. And so, yeah, I mean, look, it's tough in that the other person wasn't armed. So there's always that risk of like, well, we could lose because he used a knife and the other guy didn't have a knife, you know. He could have punched him and tackled him or whatever, but bringing a weapon into it is the way the law's written could be tricky. And yeah, you know, I just felt like at the prosecutor's office, they were just being really just terrible, you know, to not to make this person go to trial, the stress of a trial, and risk, you know, if he lost, it was mandatory state prison. There was no like, oh, we could still get probation. Mandatory state prison for this guy that's just not built for that. It just would have been terrible. So that was a great win. And I believed in the case, and I, you know, I thought we would win, but like it was, you know, you never know. You never know what a jury's gonna do. And uh so yeah, so that was sweet. And then the other one that always comes to mind was this case that was a shooting, and um the evidence it was on video, not the actual shooting, but video in the area. It was one of those cases where I was like, man, if I could get the gun suppressed, we could win this trial. It takes this loser trial and makes it winnable. And so, you know, just having this, like so putting it out into the universe and having this strategy and this vision, and then we get the gun suppressed and then makes the trial winnable, and then we win the trial, and it was just sweet. And the client was a young kid, he was really likable, and he did lawyer up and didn't talk to the detectives when they were trying to um question him. And that video is hilarious because you know, they're peppering him with these pictures that they got off of social media, and they're like, Who's that? And it's like him, and he's like, He's like, I don't know, you tell me.

Tushar Saxena 56:23

He's like, you know.

Joey Conza 56:25

And then eventually he asked her a lawyer, but he's just like, I know you know where you got that from. I know you got the, you know, whatever. It's like he was like, he was really working then, it was hilarious. But anyway, that was sweet too, because like this plan, like just you know, it doesn't always play out the way you want. In fact, it usually doesn't. And it did, and it was just like sweet.

Mentoring Younger Lawyers Without Ego

Larry Samuels 56:42

So we've spent a lot of time. Um, it's funny, you know, this is a career journey podcast, but your career is so darn interesting. I feel like we've spent more time talking about the job than we've actually spent talking about your journey. So, you know, maybe we sort of condensed things a little bit going forward. So you're with your public defender, you're at legal aid society. Eventually, you do pivot to becoming a leader, right? Uh, of those attorneys and a trainer. Talk about, you know, what it meant to you to to pivot into that type of a role and to be able to teach others what you know.

Joey Conza 57:20

Yeah, I mean, I love that. That was like the last 10 years in the public defender's office. And um I loved it. I didn't have the best sort of supervisors and trainers just for a lot of different reasons, culture and just the transition of the office, whatever. And so I can remember my one experience with my supervisor. Uh he came to see my closing argument. He then left. I got the verdict. It was an acquittal. I was really excited, obviously. And I went back to the office and I walked into his office and I'm like, full acquittal. And he was like, good, because your summation was terrible. And it was like, I'm thinking to myself, maybe it was, and I'm sure it could have been better. And like that's the whole point of the growth mindset, right? I always want to learn from wins or losses, right? But could you let me enjoy this moment and maybe like a couple days later we could talk about what could have been better in my police?

Tushar Saxena 58:15

I suck two days later, right?

Joey Conza 58:17

Exactly, right. And so, you know, look, that was a big part of like I what I knew what I didn't want to be to, you know, uh to newer folks. Um, I didn't want to be that. Uh no, and I felt like, yeah, I acquired all this like knowledge and experience, and I wanted to share it, you know, to whatever extent it would help, you know, people starting out. I always liked too, you know, I always liked meeting people, you know, at like conferences and whatever that had been doing the job as long as I have, because it's like, oh, you're crazy like me. But I always really liked meeting, you know, the new people because like they give you this new energy and you know, they can, you know, sort of reinvigorate you, you know. Yeah. So like those two groups of folks, I was always interested in being around. And so, you know, training new people and um, you know, trying to mentor them on their journey and being better public defenders and better trial lawyers. Yeah,

Consulting Work And The Uncle Ed Test

Joey Conza 59:11

loved it.

Tushar Saxena 59:11

What about your current position?

Joey Conza 59:13

It's a private consulting firm. So, you know, we assist on, you know, sort of sky's the limit, anything that comes up, you know. Uh could be a patent and springsman case, it could be a you know, a civil suit, a class action civil suit, it could be a criminal case, although it'd be a criminal case that would either be have a white collar angle or somebody who's like has, you know, a lot of money looking for our services. Yeah, for me, the attraction was the having a broader uh exposure uh you know of issues uh types of cases. That could also be scary, but I was interested. And at the end of the day, like when we're talking about trial, I don't have to be an expert at patents. My expertise in at trial is more important. I can learn whatever I have the whatever basics I need to learn about patent law. Like when it comes down to a trial, it's like you're trying to communicate to the everyday person. You don't know who's gonna be on the jury. It's not gonna be a patent attorney or a patent expert. It could be a plumber, a teacher, uh, you know, a scientist, like whatever, you know, somebody with a high school diploma, somebody who didn't finish high school, some college. So communicating to whoever is that's that's what matters. I had a professor in law school who called it the Uncle Ed argument when he would say to me, Why should you win this case? I'd be like, Oh, well, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And I think he wanted this technical legal jargon. He's like, No, what's the Uncle Ed argument? You're home for Thanksgiving, you're telling Uncle Ed about your case. What are you telling him? And you know, that stayed with me. And it's true, you know, like you're gonna get in the weeds with some legal mumbo jumbo, and like who knows who's on the jury?

Tushar Saxena 1:00:52

Famous Leo Mazzoni, pitching coach for the Braves, right? The KISS method. Keep it simple, Stupid.

Larry Samuels 1:00:56

Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious how much I mean, I really have two questions that that I want to ask because I know you know we're we're heading towards a close, but but first, how much of a unicorn are you? Meaning, how many people have spent as much time in a courtroom as you?

Joey Conza 1:01:18

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I mean, I to the extent that they exist, I know a lot of them, at least in Manhattan.

Larry Samuels 1:01:25

But have you done a hundred cases, five hundred cases? And I mean, just being in a courtroom in general, how many times have you appeared and how rare is it?

Joey Conza 1:01:33

Well, no, I I was thinking about the math the other day and uh in a different topic. Someone was based, someone had asked me, how many people like are out there or did you represent that are like just bad dudes that can't live among us? They do need to be locked up forever. And I was doing the math, I was like, I probably represented over 10,000 clients. Wow, of that of that 10,000, there are less than 10 that cannot live among us. Like they can't, and but that's a very small number.

Larry Samuels 1:02:06

10,000 cases. And the firm that you've gone to, I mean, they they've hired you because you've you've done so much, correct?

Joey Conza 1:02:15

Yeah. Yeah, and but really the trial work and like the number of so New York is an unusual jurisdiction in that they have attorney-led questioning for jury selection. Most jurisdictions don't have that. The judge asks questions, the attorneys could suggest the questions, but the attorneys don't get up and ask them. And so, you know, the way it was put to me is like if you could do, you know, jury selection in New York State, you could do it in any jurisdiction. Because the hardest part is doing that attorney-led part. Right. And, you know, I've done that 70-some odd times, you know. To me, that was the hardest skill to get sort of good at because before you can get good at it, you have to be just comfortable at, you know, before you can start to actually do something with, you know, in you know, so do something intentional, right? Right, right. Yeah, so that was a big part of

The Lost Art Of Criminal Trials

Joey Conza 1:03:04

it.

Tushar Saxena 1:03:04

Okay, so I got a couple quickies for you. One is first, and and and like in the most succinct way possible, uh what is the one thing you see like uh leaving uh the current state of lawyering of the law? As you said before, there seems to be less and less people there who who go to trial, who are trial lawyers. Um what do you see like what do you see as being a lost art?

Joey Conza 1:03:28

Well, I just think at least, you know, in the criminal realm, um uh it's and my experience was in you know the public defense realm, um number one, there's just fewer cases. And then two, there's um there's just this shift in culture of you know, they're really pushing like programs for folks, right? And so, you know, for a variety of reasons, that's attractive. Um, you know, it takes the risk out of it for both sides, um, especially the defense side. It's like, oh, you can get this program, then the case will get dismissed, it won't be on your record, you know. Um and so, yeah, there's just few. I mean, there were never a lot of trials to begin with for as a percentage, but there's just fewer because it's you're taking a smaller uh starting with a smaller number for that percentage, and then with this push to just resolve cases and to resolve them in this like sort of favorable way, it just results in fewer trials. And so you're not learning this R. It takes so much time for if you know, number of trials, I should say. And now to get that that you know, magic number of whatever it is to be a good trial lawyer in five years when I was, you know, had this moment where I was like trying five cases a year and I did 25 trials in five years. Now it could take somebody to get five trials, it could take them 10 years. Wow. Wow.

Tushar Saxena 1:04:59

That's amazing.

Joey Conza 1:05:00

You know, like it really could. And it's like and it's no it's no fault of their own, but it's like you're not gonna be good doing five trials in 10 years. Wow.

Larry Shea 1:05:11

I wouldn't be good doing one trial. I'll tell you that right now. Um we're gonna move on to it.

Larry Samuels 1:05:18

What what's your role of the trial?

Larry Shea 1:05:19

Okay, okay. I don't know. Uh I'm a good jury member. Um so let's let's we're gonna get to advice here, and I know we're getting close to

Courtroom TV Myths And Real Moments

Larry Shea 1:05:28

wrapping up. So let's let's kind of we've tap danced around um uh a good subject all day, and that's um and I could ask it a couple of different ways, most representative of a courtroom, but TV or movie or fun um idea that you've always admired in your profession. So I like the verdict. I'm a big Paul Newman guy, you know, something like that.

Tushar Saxena 1:05:50

I love yeah, I love Paul Newman.

Larry Shea 1:05:51

You could even say night court. I don't know what it's really like. Yeah, what was your favorite?

Tushar Saxena 1:05:54

What was your favorite long show?

Larry Shea 1:05:57

Or a movie. Or a movie.

Joey Conza 1:05:59

Uh Jeez. Um, I don't know that it had a lot of court scenes, but like the wire for me was the most was the most accurate depiction of what the drug trade is really like.

Larry Shea 1:06:17

Love that answer.

Tushar Saxena 1:06:18

I was a big fan of Homicide Life on the Street. Homicide Life on the Street.

Joey Conza 1:06:22

Also very good. Yeah. Also very good.

Tushar Saxena 1:06:24

Made by the same guy, Barry Levitton to both both of those shows.

Joey Conza 1:06:27

But yeah, for me, The Wire was the, it could be the only show that I watch where I was like, yes, this is exactly what it's like. You know, especially because yeah, there was this period of time where I was trying so many drug cases. Um and, you know, there was like one particular, I just had this conversation with someone who lives on the Lower East Side. I was like, oh, I don't know if he's still there, but there used to be this guy who ran that neighborhood. He drove a blue Audi and his name was yeah, it was a nickname or street name, but whatever. And I'm like, um, yeah, I'm like, he that was his neighborhood, man. You know? Yeah. Because people were asking me, like, oh, can I walk through that neighborhood? Is it safe? And I'm like, look, he's not gonna shoot at you. He's gonna shoot at somebody moving in on his turf, but that's not you. You might catch a stray, but like he's not going to target you. He's gonna target somebody moving in on his turf, trying to sell on his turf.

Tushar Saxena 1:07:18

Um, you would just be collateral damage. So don't worry, it's not your fault.

Joey Conza 1:07:22

Maybe. But like, but I felt I just always felt like, well, that's comforting. Like, he's not gonna shoot at me. Yeah.

Larry Shea 1:07:28

You know, is law and order a good representation of real life courtroom drama or not really? No, not at all.

Joey Conza 1:07:36

No, I mean, I would have watched it for it. Night court, honestly, you know, for so night court was specifically the arraignment process. So, like you get arrested 24 hours later, you have to be brought in front of a judge, told what you're charged with, and then the judge decides is he gonna let you out or is he gonna step back? And so uh Nightcourt was very accurate for like the arraignment.

Tushar Saxena 1:08:00

So that was a lot more representative than law and law and order. Yes, I would say yes.

Joey Conza 1:08:06

That's hilarious. Have you I mean law and order, law and order tapped into a particular sort of uh a relatively conservative, like pro-law enforcement demographic? Like people that thought the police did good work and the prosecutor's office was wearing the white hat and doing God's work, you know what I mean? Like um, yeah.

Larry Shea 1:08:26

Did you did you ever have your my cousin Vinny moment on the on the stand? Just someone on the stand. You know, the uh what was or your you with a wife how about your you can't handle the truth?

Tushar Saxena 1:08:39

Right?

Larry Shea 1:08:40

Yeah, something like that. Any any moments like that?

Joey Conza 1:08:44

Uh I mean, I can just think of one. Uh it was a it was a rape case. And um so there's the special victims unit, which of course law and order has an SBU race. So um these detectives are, you know, they're supposed to be trained in a way that they're sensitive to somebody who's been a victim of uh you know sexual assault, right? So um this detective was known as being just he's a terrible detective. Like he did shitty work, kept like did his paperwork terribly, he was an idiot, didn't know how to handle like victims, whatever, whatever. And so, you know, uh my client and the accuser knew each other, so like that added a wrinkle to it, and he was, you know, this it was odd that this would have happened, and so our defense obviously was this didn't happen, you know. And part of that was the detectives didn't really believe her that it happened, right? But I didn't think they would admit to that. So I remember asking this guy, and I knew I could live with any answer, like there was no bad answer, but I also wasn't sure what he was gonna say. And so I said to him, I'm like, I'm like, you didn't tell her that you didn't believe her, right? And he's like he takes this pregnant pause forever. And I was like, oh my god, is he gonna tell me that he didn't believe her? And he did.

Larry Samuels 1:10:13

Wow.

Joey Conza 1:10:14

I'm like, you are a real like piece of shit. You're supposed to be this trained special victims detective, and you're telling women you don't believe them when they say they're raped. Wow. This piece of work. He's still a detective.

Larry Samuels 1:10:28

Great. Yeah.

Joey Conza 1:10:30

Prosecutors would complain about him all the time, though. They're like, oh, that guy. Like if they saw him on a case, they'd be like, oh no.

Advice For Future Public Defenders

Larry Samuels 1:10:39

So as we wrap, um, we like to each end each of our conversations with, you know, asking our guests to provide, I don't know about a blueprint, but some advice for somebody who might want to follow in in their footsteps. So as a public defender, if some young person out there is thinking about getting, you know, in into this world, into this craft, what advice do you have to pass along?

Joey Conza 1:11:04

Um, I think you have to sort of know what you're looking for. Um, because depending on the jurisdiction, you may or may not get what you're looking for. Um, the way things have changed, like in New York City, if you're looking for trial work, you're not going to get a lot of it, unfortunately. You know, if you want to help people and get people into programs and like be, you know, they have these specialty courts for people with mental health issues, substance use issues. If you're a veteran, things like that, okay, fine. But if you want like trial experience, you have to find a jurisdiction, and they exist, you know, you have to find a jurisdiction where they do a lot of trials, if that's what you're looking for. Because otherwise you'll, you know, you'd get burnt out just for a different reason because you're not you're not getting your expectations met. It's like, oh, I thought I was gonna get trial experience. Like, I've been here three years, I still haven't had a trial. So I think you have to figure out what is it exactly you want to do? How do you want to help people? Do you just want to help people, and that's fine. But do you want to help people in the in the realm of trial? Then you got to figure out where that is, uh, where you can actually get those trials. Yeah, that's because that's been a big change, um, you know, in in New York. And then there's some folks that think they want to be public defenders and they really just want to be policy people. Sort of change change the world and the policy, like bigger picture. And it's like, that's not what being a public defender, being a public, you're helping individuals. You're not sort of changing the world. You're not, if you know, if you're a prison abolitionist, like being a public defender isn't gonna shut prisons, you know what I mean?

Tushar Saxena 1:12:39

So being an active notion of ha being an activist is a bad thing, right?

Joey Conza 1:12:44

Yeah, I mean, God. There's a lot of posers out there and a lot of people that are performative in their activism, and it's like, um, but you're a public defender, and I, you know, my big thing is like if you want to help people at work, be a really good public defender first. And then you could do that other stuff that you're interested in on the outside. What bothers me is the people that are concerned with the stuff they do on the outside, and it's like, you're not a good public defender, though. I want you to put some energy toward that. Be really good at that first. Because that's what's right in front of you, and that's what you're gonna pay for, you know what I mean? You're and you're taking this position from somebody.

Larry Samuels 1:13:25

So know what you're getting yourself into and why. Yeah. Well, that is great advice. And you know, Joey, it's been a lot of fun for me to have this conversation because I feel like at least at the beginning, I don't want to say that I was necessarily part of your journey, but uh I did get to see the beginning and experience a lot of this, and it's kind of fun hearing where things wound up um and and and what a great journey and story and and meaningful journey it's been. So, Joey, thank you so much for coming on with us.

Joey Conza 1:13:57

Thanks for having me.