From House Calls to Dolphins: Dr. Amanda Pinder’s Veterinary Journey (Replay)

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Larry Samuels 0:02

Hello and welcome to a No Wrong Choice's best of edition, featuring one of our favorite conversations with the veterinarian Dr. Amanda Pinder. I'm Larry Samuels. I'll be joined in just a moment by Touchar Saxena and Larry She. Before we bring Dr. Pinder in, please support our show by following or subscribing to it wherever you're listening right now. Let's get started. Now joining No Wrong Choices is the veterinarian Dr. Amanda Pinder. Dr. Pinder is someone I recently met when visiting Atlantis in the Bahamas. At that time, she was the attending veterinarian who gave my group an amazing look behind the scenes. But since then, and literally by since then, I mean within the past few days, she chose to embark upon a new adventure, which I'm sure we will explore. Dr. Pinder, thank you so much for joining us.

Amanda Pinder 0:52

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Tushar Saxena 0:55

And by the way, just real quick, uh, when when Larry Sam says Atlantis, he doesn't mean the lost continent of, he means the resort in the Bahamas.

Larry Samuels 1:04

Good clarification. Just want to make sure people know. So, but before we start, I guess we should ask the question uh are we going to be calling you Dr. Pinder, Dr. Amanda, Amanda? What is the appropriate uh thing we should call you throughout this conversation?

Amanda Pinder 1:21

Amanda is fine.

Larry Samuels 1:23

Fair enough. So, Amanda, um, the way we like to lead into all of our conversations is to ask the person that we are talking to to describe who they are in their own words. Who are you and and what do you do?

Amanda Pinder 1:39

Yeah, it's uh it's a great question, and it's an interesting question right now because I'm transitioning roles. But um obviously I'm Amanda. I am a veterinarian. I've been a veterinarian for over 10 years. I've had a wide variety of experiences. Um, most recently, I was the attending veterinarian for Atlantis for just over five years, and that's uh the Atlantis Resort in Paradise Island, Bahamas. So my role there was taking care of a variety of species, uh bottlenose dolphins, um, California sea lions, macaws, um, green sea turtles, you know, anything that swims basically. Um, I'm I was responsible, you know, for their care. And uh I love that. Yeah. So um I just recently um accepted a position at an equine facility or a horse, a horse barn, basically, in layman's terms. And me and my husband are actually both veterinarians, so we're gonna be working together and building, you know, our own clinic and you know, providing hopefully a new level of care for the horses that live on the island here, as well as um for other, you know, all different types of species dogs, cats, chickens, goats, whatever we get called for, um, we're always you know willing to try and assist.

Larry Shea 2:57

I love that. Um, I get the fun part to take you back to the beginning. So I I guess my first question is what was it like growing up in paradise? Because you grew up in the Bahamas. I mean, that's amazing.

Growing Up In The Bahamas

Amanda Pinder 3:08

Yes. I know it's one of those things where you don't realize how lucky you are until you leave, right? Because it's all, you know, it's all I knew growing up. Um I'm very proud of you know that I'm Bahamian. I'm ninth generation on my dad's side and about five fifth generation on my mother's side. So all of my family basically is you know from here. Um luckily my parents uh really appreciate you know the Bahamas as well. And so most of my childhood was spent enjoying this beautiful country and being able to go on the boat. And you know, we used to camp out on the beach, you know, on the weekends or you know, various different um, you know, trips or whatever. So yeah, basically it was the dream growing up here. Uh, it was an amazing, amazing upbringing. I got to, you know, be on the ocean all the time. And just so happens that I also grew up next to one of the only horse stables on the island. So I spent a lot of time, you know, with horses as well.

Tushar Saxena 4:08

So at what point in your in your childhood, in your in your formative years, did you finally say to yourself, you know what? Uh I'm your I'm growing up in paradise here, and this is what I want to kind of do with my life. I want to take care of I want to take care of the biodiversity around me.

Amanda Pinder 4:24

I think I've always, I'm that stereotypical story. I've always wanted to be a veterinarian. Um, I have pictures, I mean, probably since I was, you know, three, four, five years old, where it's like you dress up what you want to be when you grow up, and I'm wearing like a white coat and you know, a set uh, you know, pretend stethoscope. So I've just, I mean, as soon as I could walk and talk, I've just always been obsessed with animals and it's always been my passion. So it's not really something that I can say one day I decided. It's like I always wanted to do this, and I've always been so involved with animals my entire life.

Larry Samuels 5:03

Did you have animals in your house growing up? I I assume the answer to that is yes.

Amanda Pinder 5:07

Yes, yes. We always had animals. I would say on average, three dogs, three cats. Oh, geez. Yeah. Like I said, I live close to the horse stable. So pretty much, you know, my parents had to drag me home every single night in the dark because I would never want to leave. And so there were horses there, goats there, you know, chickens, you name it. Um, but yes, always had a lot of animals in the house growing up.

Larry Shea 5:32

Do you have a favorite? Horses, maybe?

Amanda Pinder 5:35

I, you know, I don't know. It's hard to pick favorites, right? I mean, I've had so many amazing animals over the years. I'm definitely, I mean, I love dogs. I'm definitely a dog person because I, you know, you can do activities with the dog, you know, you can take your dog, you know, different places. And so I, when I was growing up, you know, like I said, we always had a variety of dogs. And I used to enjoy training the dogs. And so I used to do agility, you know, we set up these courses in the backyard with jumps out of sticks and, you know, you name it. You know, I I probably, you know, they probably were like running when they saw me coming, right? They're like, oh, she's back. She's back and she's setting up obstacles. Let's get out of here. Um, so yeah, I spent um a lot of my all of my free time basically dealing with, you know, and playing with our with our animals.

Larry Shea 6:25

So you're you're that young and there's no eureka moment, but you know that this is the way, this is the path that you're gonna travel, basically. Um I the first thing I always ask when it comes to either a doctor or a vet or so you weren't squeamish at all? Like, did you really know what this entailed? Like blood and surgeries, and you know, it's that's a hard road.

Amanda Pinder 6:47

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's definitely like a you know, weeding out process for a lot of people. A lot of people can't deal with that side of it. Um, at a pretty young age, I about 12, 13 years old, uh, I started going into a veterinary clinic in the summers. And again, I think my parents were kind of hoping they're like, oh no, she's she's not gonna be able to handle it, right? And I was like in there, in the surgery, like totally unfazed. People were like, other students that were my age, like you know, 13, 14 years old, they're passing out. And I'm just like, what do you want me to do next? You know?

Speaker 4 7:21

So nice.

Amanda Pinder 7:23

It never nice, it never really was an issue, uh, you know, for me. I just totally was like trying to learn and absorb and just kind of understand everything that was going on.

Larry Samuels 7:33

So, how did you focus those dreams and aspirations? Yeah, 1213, you're working in different clinics. Uh, I assume you picked a college that was uh geared towards this. How did you how did you pursue it?

Training For Veterinary School

Amanda Pinder 7:47

Yeah, I mean, definitely the hands-on experience was huge for me when I was younger, because obviously, you know, you you do need to know if you can handle doing surgery and and sure, you know, just seeing like if it is something that you want to do. So doing the various veterinics, as well as again, always being at the horse stables, um, you know, that was a huge part of my life. And whenever we had veterinarians visiting um to the island to deal with the horses, like specific surgeries and stuff, I was always there, you know, helping or watching or whatever, you know, whatever it was I can do at that time, whether I was 12 or 18 or whatever age it was. Um, and then once I, you know, decided, you know, obviously when I was applying to colleges, um, I went in knowing that, you know, I wanted to go to veterinary school. So yeah, originally I actually wanted, I always wanted to go to the University of Florida, but interesting story, my guidance counselor did not send my transcripts. So they declined my application. And it was like a little, it was a big, you know, it was a big deal for me then. I you know, I was 18 years old, and I thought, my life is over, you know, I'm never gonna go to vet school, you know, whatever. So I I got um University of Tampa, where I originally went, had a rolling admission. So I interviewed with them, they accepted me. And, you know, obviously hindsight is everything. And I think that I'm very lucky that I went there first because it was a smaller university, and then I did end up transferring, you know, to University of Florida because they have a stronger um, you know, pre-veterinary kind of animal biology program. But I think I would have been really overwhelmed if I went to University of Florida first because it's a large university. And like my graduating class had like 61 people.

Larry Samuels 9:39

Oh, geez. Wow.

Amanda Pinder 9:42

You know, so I was coming from, you know, an island where everything is is small, easygoing, you know, you get to speak to all your professor, you know, your teachers all the time. And that's kind of how it was when I went to the University of Tampa. It was, you know, a little bit bigger, obviously, than my high school, of course, but you know, it was kind of like a stepping stone. So for me, you know, at the time I was frustrated and I said, you know, I really didn't want to, you know, go there, but it was an amazing experience. And um, it was a nice transition, you know, to, you know, my next kind of adventure or opportunity at University of Florida.

Larry Shea 10:18

So this is normally where I would say, were you a good student? But I'm I'm gonna skip that question because I don't think you could do this profession if you're not a good student. Um, but I do want to ask you about how they approach um the anatomy of all the different animals. Because obviously a parrot is very different than a dog, which is different than a horse. A doctor has a human patient, and humans are relatively the same. You have gazillions of animals that you need to know their anatomy. How does that work?

Amanda Pinder 10:47

Well, what I always tell people in general, and even like I, you know, I get veterinary students that shadow me, it's like you never stop learning, right? You can't get through all of these things in veterinary school. You just don't have the time, right? You focus on the primary species that you're gonna see the most of, which is typically dogs and cats, and then you know, a little bit of horses and you know, cattle and so on and so forth. But really and truly, you have to be motivated to figure and learn these things out on your own because you just won't get it all in the you know eight years of education that you're gonna get. And it's you know, it's a lot, it's a lot to take in. So a lot of it has to be self-directed. And that's kind of how my life has been, interestingly enough, is that I I've pivoted and I've I've kind of been in different roles, and then I've had to say, okay, I've got to put all my energy into this and make sure I'm um learning about all the different nuances and intricacies. And but that's what makes it, you know, fun and and challenging.

Tushar Saxena 11:48

Did you have a mentor who then kind of took a shine to you and recognized the fact that, you know, you had what it takes to make that next move?

Amanda Pinder 11:55

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so the veterinary clinic that I originally um, you know, started volunteering at when I was 12. Um, I'm still friendly with the veterinarian there. He's an amazing um veterinarian and was a huge mentor to me. He wrote my recommendations for a veterinary school.

Speaker 4 12:13

Yeah.

Amanda Pinder 12:14

And I think, you know, obviously for me, I didn't realize it, but from a very young age, I think he knew that I had potential. And so he did, I feel like, really put a lot of energy and time into explaining things with me, um, which is, you know, it's just you can't you can't replicate someone like that, you know, that's just so valuable to be able to have a mentor and someone who think about it. I mean 12, 13.

Tushar Saxena 12:39

Like we say it all the time here. We say it all the time here. Mentors need mentors, yeah.

Amanda Pinder 12:43

Yeah, like who wants to talk to some 12-year-old, you know, about all this, you know, you know, intricate things that they're doing in surgery. But he did, and he took, he always took the time, you know, to explain things to me when I had questions and show me things. And, you know, so yeah, it's it's it was such a valuable experience for me. And I see him now, and he's always so proud of me. And I obviously I'm so lucky that um, you know, I had him, you know, as a mentor in my life at that time.

Competition Mentors And Setbacks

Larry Samuels 13:11

That's wonderful. I want to dig into the the training a little bit more. So you you go from from the island to the University of Tampa, and you know, what is the training process uh for a veterinarian? Are you doing undergrad and then you're doing medical school? Like what is the training that you're going through?

Amanda Pinder 13:33

Yeah, it's it's pretty, yeah, it's pretty similar to a medical school type situation. So you do your undergraduate. Most people, you can do, you know, a variety of different options depending on which veterinary school you're trying to get into. But most of them, you know, you can do either general biology or animal biology. Um my path was animal biology. Uh, you know, it's a little bit more specific. And, you know, you can kind of get into the nitty-gritty of uh, you know, obviously horses, dogs, cats, whatever, you know, whatever it is that your, you know, your school is focusing on. Um, and then you apply to veterinary schools. And that's obviously the most, I would say the most nerve-wracking process of the whole thing. It's extremely competitive, um, much more competitive than human medical schools because there's so few schools that, you know, in the United States and and you know, North America in general. Um, so yeah, your chances of getting in, I think it's like at my time it was like six to eight percent or something of people that apply get in. Wow. So, you know, you just kind of go into it thinking like, well, I'm probably not gonna get in, but you know, I'm gonna give it my best shot. Um, so for me, there's I mean, I can't even explain to you the day that I got called, you know, it was just like I couldn't believe it. Because it just you get told so many times, well, you probably you might not get in and you may not. And you know, believe it or not, you asked earlier about uh being a good student. I was a good student, but I wasn't a 4.0 student. I wasn't that like I'm gonna study all day and stay up all night. It was like I always wanted to find balance in my life. So it's like I was studying like, you know what, I'm gonna go horseback riding, you know, I want to go take my dog to the dog park. And so yeah, maybe if I studied more and I, you know, I didn't have balance, then I would have had that 4.0. But, you know, I still felt like you know, I was able to do it and be a well-rounded person. And then luckily, the school that I applied to saw that. They saw I had all these different experiences. I was the captain of my riding team. I volunteered at the shelter. I started a you know, a shelter club at University of Florida where we could all get together and help local, you know, shelters, you know, with volunteering or whatever, you know. So there were so many other things that I tried to do to make an impact with others versus just focusing on, you know, studying all the time.

Tushar Saxena 16:00

All right. So you're saying you're telling us that like, you know, it a very small amount of people get into a very small amount of schools when it comes to veterans, when it comes to veterinary sciences. So if that's the case and you were initially saying to yourself, well, I'm I may not get in, well, what was the plan B?

Amanda Pinder 16:16

There really wasn't a plan B. I I was determined. I was like, okay, if I don't get in this year, I'll try again next year. Maybe I'll get a master's degree in, you know, um, you know, equine science or you know, equine nutrition or something like that, and then try again. There really wasn't uh, you know, there really wasn't a plan B. Uh, because that's all I had, you know, focused on, you know, for most of my life. And yeah, I just wasn't gonna take no for an answer.

Larry Shea 16:47

I love that. Um, but it just I never really even thought about the fact that there's so so many fewer schools and it's so much more difficult than a medical school because there's medical schools all over the place. Um, that's just really interesting. Uh I I guess when you get into veterinary school, I mean, my first question would be my patient can't talk to me. How do I figure out what's wrong with them? Like, how do you is that what they're teaching you? Like, literally, like class 101 of vet school. Figure out what the problem is, you know. Who is your doctor doolittle?

Amanda Pinder 17:20

Exactly. That's funny. It's a good question. You know, we I remember first year we actually had a lot of client communication classes because a lot of it, too, is like a lot of veterinarians come in and they're like, you know, I just want to work with animals. And I think, you know, at the beginning, you kind of forget you need to be able to speak to people. And you need to be able to communicate with them and say and ask the right questions, because also, too, yes, you can't speak to your patients. So, how do you extract the information that you need from the owner? Um, and in the case of, you know, say Atlantis, where I, you know, where I worked for the last couple of years, we rely heavily on the trainers or the behaviorists. And those those persons have a very close relationship with the animals and they're interacting with them, you know, all day. So, how do you what are the questions that you ask to get the information? You know, how is the how's the animal been acting? What is it doing after it eats? Is it is it throwing up after it eats? You know, what is, you know, what is kind of going on? Um, and obviously just developing your clinical skills obviously as well is extremely important. Doing a good, you know, physical exam and being able to um you know interpret you know your findings and then you know go on from there.

Larry Samuels 18:34

Do people specialize going through that process or it's really just not a thing?

Amanda Pinder 18:40

People do specialize, yes, absolutely. Um so there's tons, you know, there's more and more specialties being um established. Obviously, in human medicine, most of those specialties have have long been established, but in veterinary medicine, um, some of them are still being um, you know, in terms of like the colleges that are going to accredit, accredit people to get certain specialties, some of them are still being developed. But there's like veterinary radiologists, veterinary ophthalmologists, veterinary internal medicine, small animal, veterinary internal medicine, large animals. So yeah, there's quite a few specialties. And it was something that I considered, uh, but you know, that's another, you know, four years of training. So, you know, for me, uh, I just decided, you know, I want to kind of get in there and get and kind of figure out where I fit in and and you know, go from there. And luckily for me, you know, it worked out. But I have a lot of amazing friends that specialized and um, you know, they get to do what they love as well, just ophthalmology, for example. Um, I'm actually going to be doing some ophthalmology exams with our ophthalmologist uh tomorrow. So he's uh he's been a great mentor and friend to me as well. So yeah, there's lots of different different specialties.

Larry Shea 19:57

Yeah, Tushar asked about a plan B. I I just it it I find it so daunting. You know, you talk, I think you said eight years of school, um, at the highest level. There was never a doubt or discouragement or a, you know, I I maybe need to do something else because this isn't gonna work out. It sounds like you were obviously pretty determined, but there must have been a point where you're like up against the wall, like, I don't know about all this. Oh, yeah, because that's how I would feel. Absolutely.

Amanda Pinder 20:25

There were there were times, there were times where I did not think that it was going to work out. I do like to tell this story because I think people think that, again, academically, oh, if you got into vet school and and you're doing so well in your career that you must have just breezed through. It really wasn't like that for me. I had I had setbacks. One in particular that I always tell is that I failed organic chemistry. And I thought not the first.

Larry Samuels 20:53

I imagine I would too. I'm gonna take that for granted.

Amanda Pinder 20:56

So yeah. I passed, I passed organic chemistry one, and then I failed organic chemistry two. And you know, to be honest, the professor was tough. And I would go to his office and and he, and you know, and I still remember to this day, he told me you will never get into veterinary school.

Speaker 4 21:12

Oh, wow.

Amanda Pinder 21:12

I always talk about that. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna find him one of these days.

Speaker 4 21:15

And I definitely look at you now.

Amanda Pinder 21:19

Exactly. Look at all the things that I've done and you know, all that I've saved. But yeah, it was that was a huge turning point for me. That was my sophomore year of undergrad. And I thought, there's just no way I can't, I failed this class. You know, again, my life is over. You know, I'm never gonna get into school to vet school. They're gonna see that and they're gonna say, no, she can't do it. If she failed organic chemistry, she she can't go to veterinary school. But, you know, I just had to again pivot and say, you know, I'm gonna try this again. It's okay to be upset and to be disappointed and whatever, but then find a solution. Okay. I went and found, I got a personal one on one tutor for organic. Chemistry, when I took it again, I said, There under no circumstances can I fail this class. And she was like, All right, we're gonna have to meet three hours a week, every week, and this is what we're gonna do. And we came up with a plan and I passed.

Larry Samuels 22:14

So and you got where you wanted to go. So as you work your way through the program, uh it's eight years. I I think we we we've clarified from from college and then through veterinary uh veterinary school. So as you're nearing the end, what do you do? What is the game plan? What is the approach to landing that first opportunity and becoming a vet, being Dr. Pinder?

Internships And Becoming The Doctor

Amanda Pinder 22:39

Yeah, exactly. So in your final year, sometimes even in your third year of veterinary school, which I guess would be year seven or eight, you would start doing what we call externships, which is basically you go and you visit, and it's kind of like a working interview, right? You're some of it, sometimes you know you're not going to work there in the long term. Maybe you're just going to a specific place to get experience. But a lot of times you're going, you know, because you know, hey, I might apply for an internship here once I graduate. And so basically that's what I did. Um, I just did quite a few externships in my last two years of veterinary school. And then I decided upon, you know, my top three or four choices uh where I wanted to go for my internship. And I just made it clear when I went to my top choice, I said, this is, you know, this is my top choice. This is where I see myself doing my internship. And, you know, I hope that you guys would, you know, see the value in me and see that I'm a hard worker. And yeah, luckily for me, I was able to get that internship that I wanted and gain that valuable experience.

Larry Shea 23:44

So um, where was that? And you had the good fortune of actually being in those, you know, rooms basically prior to this. So how different was it when you started getting into that externship and seeing what the day-to-day was like there compared to what you knew from you know, vet school, basically?

Amanda Pinder 24:05

Yeah, it's it's very different for sure. Vet school, you're your head's kind of spinning, right? You're just like, there's so much going on, you're trying to absorb so much information, you may not be appreciating all the little kind of details. Again, sometimes it's like the client communication and discussing finances and like all those other things that you have to then jump into day one of you know being a licensed veterinarian. So it can it's a very nerve-wracking transition going from student to doctor. It's like, hi, I'm the doctor. Oh, really? I'm the doctor. Okay, I gotta do this now.

Larry Shea 24:42

You know, you have to check yourself a little bit there. I am the doctor.

Amanda Pinder 24:45

I am, you know, and so that's kind of how it is. The first, I feel like a couple months, you're just like, what's happening? You know, you're just trying to wrap your head around all of it. But choosing a place that had, you know, good mentors was obviously huge to me. And luckily for me, the hospital that I chose, uh, which was Hollywood Animal Hospital in Hollywood, Florida, also, strangely enough, had a lot of connections to some of the veterinarians that I knew back in the Bahamas. So it was kind of this again, connection with, oh, I've known so-and-so who you've you've worked with for, you know, 20 years. And it felt, it just felt right to me. And I felt like that was going to be the best place um where I would, you know, probably fit in and get the most valuable experience.

Larry Samuels 25:32

So you always had an eye on going back home, going back to the Bahamas.

Amanda Pinder 25:36

Yep. I my original my original plan was to stay for a couple of years in the US and work. But because I'm Bahamian and I'm not American, I basically have to I had to enter into a lottery system, the H1B Um, or sorry, the J1 visa lottery system. And it's it is literally a lottery. And so you would think um, you know, someone who has advanced education or whatever, it wouldn't be that way. But, you know, that's the way it was at the time. I'm not sure how it is now. And yeah, I tried, you know, two years in a row because I wanted to get more experience in the US before moving back home. And it didn't work out. But again, I just feel like it's one of those things where it wasn't meant to work out, and that's okay. And it led me to doing my own business and then working for Atlantis, you know, which were both, you know, amazing experiences for me. So I, you know, I don't, you know, I don't regret any of those things kind of happening.

Larry Shea 26:35

No wrong choices. That's right. Exactly.

Returning Home And Starting A Practice

Larry Samuels 26:38

No wrong choices. I was like, we usually find a way to plug that in every conversation. Thank you for making that natural. So you you go back, uh, you you go back home, and what are you doing? If I remember correctly from us talking, did did you set up your own practice when you came back?

Amanda Pinder 26:58

Yes, I did. I did work for a clinic uh, you know, for a couple months, just you know, trying to get my feet on the ground. And then, you know, me and one of the veterinary technicians that I worked with at Hollywood Animal Hospital, we would always joke, like, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna start this business. It's gonna be like, we'll come to you by boat, by plane, where, you know, whatever. We're gonna make it to you, we're gonna treat your animals. And so we had this joke for the whole year of my internship. And then when I moved back home and I started seeing that, you know, there really is a need for this. It just, again, I just pivoted. I said, you know, this is what I'm gonna do. And, you know, my parents at the time were they were a little concerned because I had not really made any money. I'd been in school, you know, for such a long time and you know, didn't have like a bunch of savings or anything. They're like, You sure you want to start your own business? Like, it's kind of a big risk. And, you know, but I did, and I struggled, you know, at the beginning. Um, but again, because it's such a small community, I would say after maybe two to three months, I was busy. I didn't have days where I sat and did nothing, you know, and I think that that goes back to the community that I live in and where I'm from, is that it's everything's kind of word of mouth. And um, you know, I think people knew me, for example, from the horse stables and from various different um, you know, animal activities that I've done over the years on the island. And so it just kind of people are like, oh, Amanda's doing her own thing? Great. Let me call Amanda and she'll come out and deal with the animals here, and and people love it.

Tushar Saxena 28:33

When you say you got busy, what does that mean that you got busy? Like, are uh are you basically kind of working like 24 hours a day at that point, or is it or is it that you know um there is some downtime?

Amanda Pinder 28:43

Well, there's definitely downtime. Um, you know, I would say I was working five to six days a week, maybe you know, nine, ten hours a day. Um so yeah, I mean it was it was you know, it was jam-packed. And also because I was driving and doing the mobile kind of house to house. I mean, you can realistically, you know, you can't see as many patients in a day as you could if you were in a clinic, right? Because everyone's coming to you. So, you know, I'd average anywhere from five to eight house calls, depending on how many animals they had at each, you know, location. So yeah, it was it was busy. I I I came home every night and I was going to bed at eight o'clock.

Larry Shea 29:26

Yeah, um, I I can't imagine getting started like that. And you must be growing at that point exponentially in terms of knowledge and experience. But I want you to talk a little bit, because we touched upon it, but didn't really talk about it, uh, about the self-confidence that you need to make these calls, to make these decisions. I mean, there are lives on the line in most of these instances. You are the last line of defense. An animal needs you. You have to make the call on how to handle a sick animal, a herd animal, whatever the case may be. How confident are you? Is it something that you had to work on and grow with, or did it come naturally? Talk a little bit about that.

Amanda Pinder 30:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think it definitely is something that for me, it evolved over time. I mean, I've always been pretty outspoken and social. And, you know, I've always, always loved, you know, hanging out with my friends and, you know, kind of being out and about. So for me, I I do enjoy, you know, having relationships with people. So I would say that does come somewhat naturally to me. And that's obviously a huge part of being a veterinarian is again communication and being able to do that. And I think coming with that comes with you have to be comfortable and confident enough to say, like, sometimes I don't know. You know, I don't know. And that's something that we do have to say, um, you know, somewhat frequently, because again, our patients can't speak to us. You know, they can't say, oh no, you gave me the wrong thing. I still, you know, I still hurt. Or, you know, you can run all the diagnostics and you don't find anything, you know, find anything wrong. So sometimes you, you know, you can say, I've done all this and, you know, I just don't have a clear answer at this point. And that's okay. I think people appreciate, you know, the honesty versus scrambling and and trying to come up with something that doesn't actually make sense, you know?

Speaker 4 31:14

Yeah.

Amanda Pinder 31:15

So that's something that I've always said to, you know, other students that I've mentored is that don't be afraid to say, I'm not sure. It's not always a negative thing, especially if you've done your due diligence, you've done all the tests, you've done everything. That does happen sometimes, and you just have to be comfortable enough to um, you know, communicate that, whether it be to a client or an owner or whoever.

Larry Shea 31:37

To that end, what sticks with you more? Great success or great failure?

Amanda Pinder 31:42

Oh boy, that's that's a good question.

Larry Shea 31:44

I know that's a tough one. I had to throw it in somewhere though. Come on. That's it's a it's a big part of what you do, right? Is how hard is it to turn the page if something goes wrong? And how much do you want to take the the buoyed experience of look at what I did over here? I just saved a life or I just, you know, something like that.

The Dolphin Rescue That Changed Everything

Amanda Pinder 32:02

Yeah, I think at the beginning you really take your your failures with you. I have to be honest, right? It's like you have spent your whole life, especially like for me, I spent my whole life being devoted to animals. And then when you have, you know, a lot of times it's not things within your control. Something happens to a patient of, you know, an amazing client, and you're just like, it's all you can think about. You're just like, how could this happen? You know, we did everything we could, and you know, this animal, you know, passed away. And yeah, I mean, I can't lie, the first time I had a really good client's pet, I mean, I thought about it for months. You know, it was something that definitely was challenging, you know, for me to move forward from. But over the years and through various, you know, different techniques and um whatever, you know, you learn to leave these things behind because, you know, you don't want to carry all only negative things because there's so many positive things uh that we get to do in our career and so many animals that we've helped. But yeah, it it can definitely weigh heavily on you for sure.

Larry Samuels 33:06

Knowing where you're based in the Bahamas and knowing the type of roles that you've had, have you been involved with the rescue of an animal that has been uh a standout experience for you, a really special experience?

Amanda Pinder 33:22

Yeah, absolutely. Um my original kind of entrance into uh marine mammal medicine with the stranding network in conjunction with Atlantis was the stranding of an Atlantic spotted dolphin, whom we named uh Eminem, and the found out later on that he was already documented as Lambda. Basically, this dolphin stranded um in the Barry Islands, which is another set of islands in the Bahamas north of Nassau where I live. And um, I had just literally signed up two weeks prior to say, I I want to volunteer, I want to help, you know, let me know what's going on, and you know, I'll make myself available. And so two weeks later, they call me a dolphin stranded. He's on a beach in the Barry Islands. Can you come? I said, sure, called on my clients, explained to them, they're like, oh my God, please go, go help. So I go.

Tushar Saxena 34:17

I'm going to save dolphins.

Amanda Pinder 34:18

Yeah, exactly. They're like totally, totally fine with it. They're like, Fluffy can wait for his vaccines. Go save the dolphin. Um I went, and um anyway, long story short, uh, I was able to learn how to get a blood from a dolphin and give an injection to a dolphin, all those things that I had never had the experience of. And again, you don't get that in veterinary school, as you as one can imagine, dolphins aren't um patients that come into a hospital routinely. So I got to learn a lot on this animal and um assist with rehabilitating him and getting him back out into the ocean. After about 60 days, he was released. Now, the crazy part about this story, which is literally, I'm never gonna be able to top this story ever again in my career, is we then years later, um, I believe it was four, four years later, me and my husband are in the area in that kind of Barrier Islands or Bimini area where we know those particular dolphins live. And we go there. I said, you know, let's wonder if we're gonna see Eminem. Let's go out on the boat and try and, you know, do like a like a dolphin, you know, tour where they take you to try and look for the dolphins. We go out on this boat, 20 minutes in, we see a pot of dolphins, we get in the water, Eminem swims right up to me.

Larry Shea 35:39

Wow. There you go. There you go. Wow, that's amazing.

Amanda Pinder 35:43

Make this up. I'm having good, I have goosebumps now. I've told this story a hundred times, and it still is just the most incredible experience. I can't explain to you. I mean, the way I was screaming, the boat driver thought I was drowning because he didn't know what was going on. I was just screaming at the top of my lungs. It's Amazon.

Tushar Saxena 36:05

Not good to do in the water. Don't do that for the water. Too many people have seen Joe's.

Amanda Pinder 36:09

They thought I was like being attacked by a shark, you know? And luckily, you know, my husband was there and he's an avid underwater photographer. And so we got photos. Um, basically has this distinct hole in his dorsal fin from where his satellite tiger was. Um, since, you know, it's since dropped off, but he has a very distinct scar on his dorsal fin. And yeah, he swam right next to me. And we have, you know, we have photos of that. And I can't even explain to you what it's like to save an animal like that, put it back in the ocean, and four years later see this animal. And then it gets better. We get back to Atlantis. I tell my boss, I say, This is what happened, and we look at the date. It was four years exactly to the date that he stranded.

Tushar Saxena 36:59

Wow. Come on.

Amanda Pinder 37:01

I can't make it up. That's what I'm saying.

Tushar Saxena 37:02

That's amazing.

Amanda Pinder 37:05

Really insane story. And just like, you know, that's the story what you know, I tell people, it's like that's the type of story, that's the type of experience that makes all the stress worth it, right? Like, you know, you just you worry about your patients so much, you want them to do well. And, you know, especially when you're dealing with this magnificent animal, you're putting it back in the ocean, you're like, oh my goodness, I hope nothing bad happens to you. I hope you live an amazing life. And he did. And he's, you know, we think he's still out there. Um, we went back a year later and we did get some video footage with, you know, a whole video crew and everything. We got to see him again, luckily, on the third day. Um, we were there for three days. The first two days, no go. And the third day and the final hour, he showed up. So we got to get some amazing footage.

Larry Samuels 37:51

Amazing. Did he approach again?

Amanda Pinder 37:53

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He came, he came right right up to us. Um, he was with a bigger pod this time. So it was you know, a little bit more of a you know, excitement going on.

Speaker 4 38:03

Yeah.

Amanda Pinder 38:03

Um, it was a different moment.

Speaker 4 38:06

Yeah.

Amanda Pinder 38:06

Different experience from the first time because it was just me and my husband in the water. And it was no, there was nobody out there. It was a flat calm day. It was just like the water was glass and it was just quiet, just us and the animals. Yeah, you just can't you can't replicate anything like that.

Life At Atlantis And Marine Care

Larry Shea 38:24

Yeah. I I asked you before about the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. There it is. Right there. Nothing can top that. Um, let's nothing can top that. Um, so let's talk about the transition from your own practice to Atlantis. Because I know from what I understand, you were what volunteering for the Atlantis stuff, and that's how you you got out to help this MM, the spotted dolphin. And how does that transition to a position later on? Is it just because they knew you and they're like, hey, it's open. We know you, we trust you. Come on aboard.

Amanda Pinder 38:54

Yeah, it was it wasn't quite as as quick as that. Obviously, it was a more gradual process. So once they saw my interest in this particular animal MM, they saw that, you know, I was coming in, I was learning, you know, trying to, you know, be as adaptable as possible. You know, my boss was like, Are you interested? Like, would you be interested in a position here? Because we could probably use someone part-time, um, you know, to fill in when you when the other veterinarian, you know, is you know, on vacation or whatever. And I was like, I mean, obviously I'm interested, you know. So it kind of started with that. And I I balanced doing my um mobile veterinary practice, and then I started with one day a week for probably the first like six to eight months, and then I went up to two days a week and then three days a week, and then like I said, did pretty much increase my time over two years um before then uh was offered the full-time position, which also coincided with me and my husband getting married. And luckily, my husband is also a veterinarian, so then he was able to take over the house. Oh, oh, okay. Okay, great. It all kind of worked out, and I, you know, because I think too, it was like one of those things where we're having discussions where it was like, oh, well, my my husband is moving here and we're trying to figure out what he's gonna be doing. And then it was like, Well, would you want to be full-time? And I was like, Yeah, if you guys want me to be full-time, like that could work, and then you know, my husband can take over the business. And it was a gradual transition from kind of this the mixed animal mobile practice, and then getting more experience in the aquatic kind of worlds, and then taking it on full-time.

Tushar Saxena 40:43

All right. So then I guess then my question will be about the trans, it will be transition in that case, right? So obviously, uh the most obvious difference is that the animals in uh in Atlantis or those you're dealing with there, they're in the water all the time. That's their life. Uh, and so you're transitioning from those that are on the land to those that are in the water. Um, what is that transition? Well, I mean, what does that entail for your own mindset then to see like, okay, I'm still dealing with mammals, but they're in an entirely different environment from where I am normally uh used to.

Advocacy Aquariums And Public Misconceptions

Amanda Pinder 41:14

Yeah, it's it's a huge transition. I would say it was it was big. It was a big transition for me. And I think that obviously when you're dealing with house calls, you come in, you're like, all right, fluffy, let me examine you and you know, you do what you need to do. Whereas when you're dealing with especially marine mammals, um, that the house call the house is the Caribbean Ocean for now. Right, exactly. When you when you're dealing with uh intelligent animal, like you know, marine mammal like a bottomless dolphin or you know, a sea lion, you you have to exercise patience because everything that, especially in a facility like Atlantis, is done through positive reinforcement training, right? And so the animals are trained to be able to give, you know, the behaviors that you need to say get a blood or to do an ultrasound or whatever it is. So, you know, sometimes it's like you're you're having to plan these things weeks in advance. Like, okay, we want to do this on this particular animal. Now you guys have to kind of take it and start the training. So it's it's it's so much different from you know the other, you know, the other types of medicine that I was doing prior to coming and really just having to understand the whole operation and how how everything works. But I would say it was such an amazing experience to see how much time and energy goes into training these animals and how intelligent they are. And how you don't, you know, even from uh now I'm transitioning back, you know, to doing, you know, more small animal and you know different things with horses. And I think that the experience that I have has taught me that exercising patience, you know, with your with these animals is extremely important because it makes it a positive experience for them as well. You know, we don't want them to be, you know, it's like that famous thing, you know, the vet comes in all, you know, the dogs are cowering and the cats are trying to run away, right? And I think that it's really changed my whole approach on how I think about veterinary medicine and how I think about my patients in terms of making everything a positive experience. And sometimes taking your time and saying, okay, fluffy stressed out today. We can't get the blood right now. Let's pivot and figure out how we can, you know, do it better, maybe in a different scenario. Whereas before, without having this experience with the marine mammals, I don't think I think about it the same way. I think it was it was definitely different.

Larry Samuels 43:43

As a vet, you know, it it you you're you're developing a rapport and a relationship with obviously your customers and your clients, but also with the animals. What when you're at Atlantis, it feels like it's a very different job where you are the face of this. Incredible facility where you are interacting with all of these different guests. You are presenting what Atlantis is doing in the most wonderful light possible. How much of an adjustment was that for you?

Amanda Pinder 44:14

Yeah, I think it was, I think it was a huge adjustment. I think the reality is that there's a lot of negative press on marine mammals under human care. And I think it mostly comes from misinformation and also just lack of education. As well as I always say to people, not all facilities are created the same. Atlantis is accredited by many different bodies. And, you know, we we hold our standards to the highest level, right? So most people, I think, you know, don't understand, don't understand the level, you know, of care that goes into these animals. And so I think that when I transitioned, like to me, it made sense. But then, you know, when you present that information to the public, you need to make sure that you're presenting it in a way where it's like you're not just gonna get one, someone's not gonna take one sound bite and they're gonna be like, Oh, these animals are living in a prison or whatever, you know what I mean?

Larry Samuels 45:12

Like they're right, they'll take something because you became an advocate in a way.

Amanda Pinder 45:16

Correct. Yeah. And like I said, there's there is a lot of criticism, um, you know, kind of in this field. So you do have to think before you talk and make sure that, you know, you're not gonna say something that somebody can spin around and say, Well, you said this, um, you know, but really obviously you, you know, you meant something different. So yeah, it took practicing and, you know, probably driving, you know, my husband insane, um, talking, talking about things at home, talking about things um at work. Obviously, I leaned a lot on my coworkers who have been there much longer than me and have used to, you know, the PR aspect of, you know, having to answer questions about the animals and stuff. So for sure, it wasn't something that I took on, you know, on my own. I definitely relied a lot on others to help guide me and you know, make sure that I wouldn't put my foot in my mouth.

Tushar Saxena 46:13

What are your feelings then on what are your feelings then on, let's say, as you said before, and I agree with you. I think that the notion of having like the average, the average person, like the three of us, interact with these animals, interact with these, interact with these fish. It's paramount to kind of understand, get a better idea on the world we live in. Obviously, there's been a tremendous there was has been and was a tremendous amount of controversy, let's say around a place like SeaWorld. You obviously were the head of a large facility, not as big, maybe not as big as that, but as you said, you kind of had to advocate for that. So what are your feelings on places, let's say, like SeaWorld? I mean, are aquariums at our large-scale uh water aquatic facilities, aquariums, etc., are they as important as zoos for the ever for the average public to kind of wrap their head around and kind of see the world they live in?

Amanda Pinder 47:03

Absolutely. The I think the thing that um unfortunately never, you know, it's just like with any news and media, certain things are always shared more because it, you know, it evokes more of an emotion, I guess, you know, or a response from people. And, you know, the thing about places like SeaWorld, Georgia Aquarium, I mean, there's so many amazing facilities that, I mean, they do so much, they can't even put all of it out there, you know, in into the universe. I mean, they are rescue and rehabilitating manatees, sometimes whales, sometimes, you know, I I can't even begin to list the amount of things um, you know, that they're involved in, as well as they are advancing medicine in this field, which we still don't we don't know everything, right? And we're learning stuff every day. So they're doing studies on how a dolphin processes certain medications, and so that way when there is a mass stranding event and we, you know, people need to assist, we have a baseline of what we need to be doing because again, there's so much that we don't know. So I think there's just there's I mean, I could talk about this for hours because there's so many things that um so many different areas that you can touch on, but the role of these facilities is you can't even measure it. And I think that it's unfortunate that so many people think of them in a negative light. But without them, who is going to rescue and rehabilitate uh these animals that need assistance? And advocate for and advocate for them. There will not be uh it just it's just not uh it's not gonna be a good situation, you know, if we don't have these facilities to um educate people and continue their conservation efforts.

Larry Shea 48:57

I I read uh one of the most common misconceptions about veterinarians is um that you guys are all wealthy. Everybody makes a million dollars. Because as far as I'm concerned, whatever you get paid is not enough because we need you. Um but I I guess would you find that to be true? I mean, we think about I think about taking my pets to the vet, and it's a lot of money. Um, but I think it's a misconception. I think most veterinarians are just happy to help. Um it's a it's a job and they do well, but you're all not millionaires and you should be, in my opinion. It goes to gas money. They're always on the move.

Amanda Pinder 49:33

Yeah, it is it is a career of passion. I will definitely say that. I remember, you know, depending on where you would work. Like, so for example, when I worked in South Florida, you get these really emotional heated kind of clients. They come in and you're like, okay, here's the estimate for so and so. And, you know, it's gonna be a thousand dollars to do this emergency procedure or whatever. And they're like, How do you sleep at night charging all this money? And you're like, I'm sorry, I barely have a bed to sleep on, okay, at this point, you know. So you have to pay all the staff, you have to pay the electricity, you have to pay for all the supplies. You mean there's so many things to running a business. People just never think about it in human medicine because it's subsidized either by private insurance or you know, government assistance, right? And so when people get animals, I think they commonly forget that it is a privilege in many places in the world to have an animal because it is expensive to provide care. Just if you were to have to pay cash for your hospital bills for yourself, you wouldn't be paying you'd be saying the same thing that your doctor, right? You would be paying. I mean, I got a bill once, I remember for an endoscopy, and for some reason, you know, there was a mix-up with insurance. They sent me a bill for like $16,000. I'm like, we should start charging more for our endoscopies. We only charge like $1,000.

Tushar Saxena 51:03

Did you call the hospital up and say, How can you people sleep at yet? Yeah, exactly.

Amanda Pinder 51:07

So yeah, it is it is definitely something that within the veterinary community we do experience a lot that people say, how you know, how can you charge this much? This is my child. And it's, you know, this is my baby, this is my dog. And it's like we we have, unfortunately, we all have to pay bills. And it's not even like, again, we're not millionaires, we're not making what the plastic surgeon makes, you know, at the um, you know, Mount Sinai or whatever, you know, whatever fantasy hospital. We're just trying, you know, to have a decent life and um do something that we're passionate about. So yeah, it's definitely it's a hot topic in veterinary medicine.

Larry Samuels 51:45

Well, speaking of possibilities, uh you you are pursuing a new one uh as you are transitioning away from Atlantis to establish your own practice. Or I I believe. Uh what are you going to do next? Talk to us a little bit about your next adventure.

Amanda Pinder 51:59

Yeah, so basically I'm kind of having a full circle moment. And uh me and my husband were approached to manage an equine facility, a horse, basically a horse stable just for private owners, um, with also the goal of opening the first equine hospital in the Bahamas.

Tushar Saxena 52:23

Wow. Really? Wow, that's awesome.

Amanda Pinder 52:25

Yeah. So if I go back to kind of again, circling back to when I was applying to veterinary school, when I wrote my essays, you know, saying what my goals were, my goal was to be the first Bahamian equine veterinarian. And then when I moved home, I thought, oh, I don't know if I can if I can make enough and make a living, you know, doing just the horses. So, you know, I'm gonna mix it up and do everything. Um, and obviously, like we already discussed, you know, it went well. Now we have a group of individuals that you know are bringing in very high-level horses that they want to be able to provide the very best care. And in order to do that, you can't take a horse into a small animal hospital. You have to build a hospital that can fit horses.

Speaker 4 53:14

Yeah.

Amanda Pinder 53:16

Similar to what you know, we have like at Atlantis, we had to build a hospital that can fit dolphins and sea lions. So yeah, this is going to be uh obviously an exciting journey where hopefully we will be able to provide very high-level care for horses on the island, as well as you know, other animals as well. But in the case of an emergency, um, being able to do a surgery on a horse is a huge deal. And right now in the Bahamas, and and there's never been any facility in the Bahamas that's ever been able to do that. So that's what we're planning on creating.

Tushar Saxena 53:53

Wow. That's awesome. That's awesome. So, Amanda, I mentioned a moment ago, you are the closest thing that we will ever speak, you are the closest person we will ever speak to as a real life Dr. Doolittle. So, my question to you is this which animal, uh uh first land and then aquatic, most expressive?

Amanda Pinder 54:12

That's that's a good question. Um I I feel like land, I would say dogs are pretty expressive. That that would be my my first instinct. There are other animals too, but if I had to choose one, it seems like you're backing me into a corner and I have to choose one.

Tushar Saxena 54:27

I'm backing you into a corner.

Amanda Pinder 54:28

Dogs on land and in the ocean, I would say I would say dolphins, bottlenose dolphins.

Tushar Saxena 54:36

Really? I actually thought you'd say sea lines, to be honest with you. I thought you'd say sea lions.

Amanda Pinder 54:40

Dolphins are, yeah, they they are they're pretty expressive, they have a lot of personality. Um, sea lions do as well, but in a different way. So yeah, I I would say if I had if I had to choose one, I would choose dolphins.

Larry Shea 54:53

Okay, I'll follow up with that. Uh, I don't know if you know the the author, Douglas Adams, uh British author, wrote a bunch of fiction, doesn't matter. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, bunch of things. He um he talks in his book about how humans are third smartest species on the planet, with dolphins being second and white mice being first because they lead us to all experiments and control our behavior and things like that. In your opinion, smartest animal in the world is Yeah, I think I would say bottlenose dolphins.

Tushar Saxena 55:24

They're pretty bottlenose dolphins. There you go.

Amanda Pinder 55:27

Yeah, they're pretty intelligent.

Tushar Saxena 55:29

Are you biased at all? You've been dealing with it for a while.

Larry Samuels 55:31

Are you biased at all?

Amanda Pinder 55:33

You know what? Maybe you guys will catch up with me in five years and I'll be working with like bats or something random, you know? And that's the the cool part about this job is that you can kind of continue to pivot and and explore new kind of avenues. But yeah, I would I I'm gonna stick to my answer, dolphins.

Larry Shea 55:51

And we're behind them, by the way. We're third.

Amanda Pinder 55:54

So I love I love that. I have a pin um that I got that says thanks for all the fish from that.

Advice Takeaways And How To Follow

Tushar Saxena 56:01

There you go. There you go. There you go. You did go double that was right.

unknown 56:06

Very good.

Amanda Pinder 56:06

We love that. We love to sing that song at work.

Larry Samuels 56:10

Perfect. So, Matt, if somebody is listening who uh is a young woman, a young man who aspires to become a veterinarian and uh wants to get to a similar place to where you've wound up or where you find yourself today, what would you tell them?

Amanda Pinder 56:30

I would say the relationships that you make with people are extremely important. Um, we get into this field because we love animals, but again, I'm having a full circle moment right now, and I do believe that it's because of the strong relationships that I have with people that I've made, you know, along the way for whatever reason. And, you know, secondly, is that I think experience is the most important thing, and exposing yourself to as many things as you can, you know, along the way is extremely important. When I was graduating high school, I did an externship at a dolphin facility, I did an externship at a swine operation, I did different equine or horse, you know, activities. So, you know, I always try to kind of do have a broad kind of spectrum of activities that I was doing so that I felt like I would be more well-rounded and you know be able to have different experiences even before you know I went into veterinary school.

Larry Samuels 57:38

That's great advice. Well, uh, Amanda, I I'm so glad that I I tracked you down and that we convinced you to join us today. I I I've learned a ton. I I'm so excited for what you have in front of you. And uh, you know, I think the three of us are just we want to we want to know more. We we can't wait for the next chapter. Thank you so much for joining us.

Amanda Pinder 58:02

Thank you so much. This was awesome.

Larry Samuels 58:05

So that was Dr. Amanda Pinder, who I had the good fortune of of meeting. And I, of course, was foolish enough not to get her number at the time, but uh eventually chased down after the fact to convince to join us today. And and what a great story.

Larry Shea 58:20

Larry Shea, what are your takeaways? I I'd learned so much, I think is the biggest thing I take away from it, right? I never really thought about the fact that there's medical schools all over the place and everybody wants to go to medical school, you know, it's a very stressful process, but there's even fewer veterinarian schools, right? So I I was shocked, you know, that six to eight percent chance of her actually being accepted to these schools. I mean, I think that's fascinating first and foremost. Um she always wanted to be a vet, right? She's a 12-year-old child or even younger dressing up like a vet. And I don't think we've ever really had something like that. But the fact that somebody let her in a surgery and took her under under their wing and kind of taught her at such a young age. I mean, it's very rare that you go into a profession at that age, especially, and that's the straight path, right? And you go and she said it herself. It's a career of passion, and her advice was great, you know, and we say it all the time. Relationships matter and get experience. You know, we can't say it enough. Not everybody is fortunate enough to be able to offer your time, but if you could do an internship and offer your time, you're gonna get a lot out of it because that's how a lot of these professions work.

Tushar Saxena 59:36

Absolutely. I mean, you know, I was also surprised by the fact that, you know, and you said it too, is that how few veterinary schools there are out there, and that you didn't have a plan B. The plan B was I'll just reapply a year later if I have to. Right. Right? Essentially I'll just sleep on somebody's couch for a year until I'll reapply again. Um, which is amazing. And you know, we always talk about the notion of mentors need mentors, right? So we always talk about that as well. And that, yes, that being able to not only prove yourself when you go to an internship, but prove yourself to the point where the people who are in charge see something in you and then they go out of their way to nurture that. That's amazing to me. And she has been so successful, I am so jealous of that type of a profession. Because I mean, you know, I don't think I had that kind of stamina in me to say at a young age, this is what I want to do with my life. And then to not only do that, but to pursue it with such a focus that down the line, not only do be not only do you become that, that in her case a veterinary, uh, uh a veterinarian, but become the head of one of the biggest resorts in the world that she then becomes a teacher for everyone else who steps into this arena. It's amazing.

Larry Samuels 1:00:53

Yeah, you know, and and as you say that, one of the things that really struck me was the smile that was so clearly coming through during the entire conversation.

Tushar Saxena 1:01:05

She loves her job. She loves her job. She loves what she does.

Larry Samuels 1:01:08

She loves her job. She she figured it out very early, and and nothing has changed. And it comes across so clearly. So one of the things that I wanted to dig into as part of the conversation was about advocacy. And in a way, at that type of a facility, you are a spokesperson, you are a PR person for that type of uh of resort, facility, whatever word I'm looking for. And she is an advocate. So whether she wanted to be or not, she was thrust into a position where she she needed to kind of figure it out. How how do I communicate? How do I engage with others? But it was natural because it's who she is. The passion, the love, the drive that she's had her whole life. There's nothing inauthentic about any aspect of her. It really struck me as something truly remarkable and and admirable.

Larry Shea 1:02:03

And the story about her saving that spotted dolphin. I mean, just the reward that she must get from doing something like that, from helping another animal survive and thrive in the ocean after it had beached itself. I mean, she said it herself. She you're never gonna get another story like that. I mean, it's one in a billion, right?

Larry Samuels 1:02:22

Exactly. Exactly. Well, maybe now she'll get one that involves a horse. So hit that. Dr. Amanda Pinder, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Our apologies for the slight technical glitch at the end there. If you enjoyed the conversation, please be sure to follow the show and connect with us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube. You can also discover some great bonus content about our guests by visiting our website at NoWrongChoices.com. On behalf of Larry Shea, Two Char Staxina, and me, Larry Samuels, thank you so much for joining us.