Building a Career in Art and Leadership with Vanessa Fusco of Christie’s Auction House

0:08 I didn't like the way history was taught my social studies classes. I was so bored and it wasn't something that really engaged with me. I thought I'm not. I'm just not a student of history. But then what I discovered is I really am. It's just a visual history. You have to be able to do your job well, even if you think you know everything there is to know. You know about impressionism, modern art, like you have to be able to deal with an Excel spreadsheet. The reason why the 20th century really has always appealed to me is those two world wars. And you know what happens during a time where the world is turned upside down, when nothing makes sense and artists are creating new visual languages to try to understand that.

0:59 And then you're really kind of analyzing it in a different way, in a formal way, as what it is physically made of, and when you break it down in that way, there's no value. I mean, what is it? It's materials, basically. So what creates the value is like, what does it do for you? It's a really competitive field and it's different. You know, I think of. I always compare it with like law. You know, you go into law, you're a first year, then you're a second year. Everyone kind of advances the same. It does not happen that way here at all. But the best thing you can do is really excel, even if it feels like you're doing something mundane. Prove yourself in your role, in your position, and show your interest in your position and show your interest.

1:45 Hello and welcome to the Career Journey Podcast No Wrong Choices. I'm Larry Samuels and I'll be joined in just a moment by Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea. This episode features Vanessa Fusco of the world-renowned auction house Christie's. Before we bring her in, please be sure to support the show by liking, following or subscribing to it wherever you're listening right now. Let's get started Now. Joining no Wrong Choices is Vanessa Fusco. Vanessa is the international director and head of impressionist and modern art at the world-renowned auction house Christie's. She is based in New York City.

2:26 Vanessa, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure, nice to be here. Did I get all of that right? Was that the correct title? That was relatively long. That is the title yeah, we were actually sent. Today. Sam sent us the corrected title for you and he was like this is the short version. I'm like this is a paragraph long. This is the short version we're talking about here. It's a multifaceted job. So for sure. Well, can you take us through that? So I can run through a title and a list, but nobody can tell us what you do better than you. So in your own words, who is Vanessa and what do you do? Sure. Well, I am the head of the Impressionist and Modern Art Department at Christie's in New York and that means that I cover European art made between roughly 1860s and middle of the 20th century, always in Europe.

3:22 And what we do at Christie's is we put together sales and advise clients on both buying and selling. It's consignment based. So part of my year is spent convincing clients to sell with Christie's in our auctions and then part of my year is spent working with buyers, you know, to advise them on acquisitions and whatnot. We do a lot of appraisals, so there's time in between all that where we're helping clients look at the value of their artwork for insurance purposes, for gifting purposes, for moving, you know, paintings within a family. There's a variety of reasons that someone might need to understand the value of their art, and so we do it all.

4:09 In the process of preparing something to come for sale, there's a lot of research that goes into it. So I oversee a team who craft the provenance. So that's the history of each object when has it been? When has it changed hands? Where has it traveled over the course of its lifetime before coming to an auction or a sale? And we do photography, write the essays try to explain what the object is, contextualize it for a buyer and then value it. So a lot of discussion about what is the right number to put on a work of art, what is going to be the right number to sell it, to part with it and then for the buyer what is the right number to acquire it.

4:52 So and other things also, like catalogs and books. You know I'm a book editor to part of the year, so I then do exhibition design, so there's a lot that goes into it but that keeps it fun. You're hitting on like so many questions that I have right there. That's beautiful, I love it, but to be honest, I mean it sounds like a dream job. So let's start with the dream, right. Let's go back to the beginning. What was the dream? Was there an art moment that you remember from your childhood, where you're, like forever, enthralled with this world and the fascination of the art world and this is what I want to do for a living? Or was it something else? I want to be a doctor or a lawyer or something else. I always was interested in art. I grew up in New York City.

5:33 I went to the amazing museums that we have here as a child, Lucky enough, I went to elementary school a couple of blocks away from the Met and we would take visits there, and so I think art and culture just living here was always ingrained in me. But I really knew nothing about the art world. It's not something that I had familiarity with, it's not. You know, I don't come from a family of collectors. I didn't grow up with art in my home. So you know I came to this art world as something of an outsider. I actually went to college with a desire to be a filmmaker. I went to Vassar and I took a art history class there, because they're very well known for their art history program and I just fell in love.

6:20 While I say I always enjoyed engaging with art, the idea that it could be a profession was very foreign to me. It really wasn't something I had thought about. But in college I just really enjoyed my art history classes and then that led to internships and work experience and that's really where I discovered a very vibrant career path. But that was mostly non-profit. That's mostly was in museum world and small galleries and the auction house. You know, art as a commodity was something I had even less engagement with and really something that you know, when I was in school wasn't taught you didn't, you know, you didn't cross Art was a study, Art was an academic pursuit, and at least the programs that I was in that's really what it was treated as.

7:18 And the commercial side was a bit, you know, a bit frowned upon. They weren't trying to breed dealers, they were trying to breed curators and, you know, academics. How did I end up at Christie is? Very randomly, I was out of school and wanted to work in the arts and I was interviewing, and I interviewed for an entry-level assistant position here in the books and manuscripts department and again, really, you know, with limited understanding, frankly, of the functions of an auction house. And I also interviewed at the Met and that was in the ancient Near Eastern department and both were entry-level, you know, get your foot in the door very administrative work, both out of fields that I really was particularly interested in, that I really knew much about.

8:07 But I saw it as an entry point and I was at this crossroads at that time, deciding between the Met and Christie's, and I chose Christie's and it's just been a marvelous voyage ever since then. I went from the books department to the impressionist and modern art department, which is really you know where my interest lay, and then I left for a period to do graduate work, also thinking maybe I wasn't necessarily going to come back. But what I found when I was in graduate school was that I really missed the interaction and the engagement you know that I had with people. There's so many passionate people here that are crazy specialized and interested in very niche things and you have access to all of them and you're working with them and talking to them all day long, and I miss that.

8:54 Where in graduate school the academic felt more like I was in dialogue with a very small group of people who cared about this very specific thing that I was researching, and it was a lot of time alone, you know, in the library with my thoughts, and it was a great experience and it taught me a lot. But I went into a PhD program and I ultimately took a leave of absence from that. Feeling like this wasn't as satisfying to me. I wanted to do something more hands-on again with people, and so I came back to Christie's and worked in what was the museum services department, which was really working with nonprofits, so kind of holding on to that academic side, and then I missed the objects and so I came back into Impressionism and Modern Art as a specialist to work more hands-on with the artwork again and yeah, it's just been a wonderful trajectory since then, which was in 2014.

9:48 So, 11 years ago. So you've been in this world for quite a long time. At this point I want to kind of pick up a little bit on that first impression of art. And while you say, obviously, that you know you maybe there wasn't a great deal of connection between, let's say, as a young child, art and then seeing that as a career, seeing it as anything else down the line. I would have to assume that something kind of touched you Because you know, as you said, you were not that far away from the Met as a child when you would probably often be going there with school trips. Was there an artist that you kind of connected with, even as a child, that you can kind of remember? Well, yeah, I mean, the artists that I really loved were Italian Baroque. I mean, the artists that I really loved were Italian Baroque. So, caravaggio, gian Lorenzo Bernini the sculptor, was something that I remember just being and this is through images, you know, this is mostly art in Italy, but like I remember just being amazed by what Bernini could do with marble, how supple and soft and human-like he could make skin out of such a cold, hard material.

10:46 And that craft, just I thought, was so sensational and it really got me and I had to learn more about it. And then I think you know, that's the technical side of the interest. But then what always has interested me and what I've always, you know, a lot of my work in college and in graduate school was about. It was how are artists reacting to the times and the moments they live in? Right, because some art, some art, feels timeless, some art feels very dated, some art, you know, we look at and we think I, you know I, have nothing in common with that. I don't understand it. And so what is the time and place in which something was made? And understanding that context to me is so interesting.

11:27 It's interesting because when I was in school, I love history. But I really I didn't like the way history was taught my social studies classes. I was so bored in them and it wasn't something that really engaged with me. So I thought I'm just not a student of history. But then what I read? So I thought I'm not, you know, I'm just not a student of history. But then what I discovered is I really am. It's just a visual history, but you can't really understand objects without understanding what's happening, you know, in the time and place in which they were created, because we're all a product of where we go Absolutely the time we live in. Yeah, we're all part of the time we live in. Yeah. Exactly and you know our cultural output is a reflection of that.

12:09 So a lot of the work I did and the reason why the 20th century really has always appealed to me is those two world wars and you know what happens during a time where the world is turned upside down, when nothing makes sense and artists are creating new visual languages to try to understand that. You know an old language could no longer be used after World War I. There had to be a new language. So that always really interested me in the way you know artists are responding to wars, major cultural shifts, atrocities. It's history through objects. Right, because I was going to say that I went to Fordham University and I also was a history major there, and while I was not always happy with the way the history courses were taught, I can absolutely totally sympathize with you about how, later in life, I've realized now how important those were, because we are all creatures of the time that we live in.

13:07 And when I entered into the working world, for me I found out that my history degree really helped because I'm a big sports fan, so I understood the time of how sports then resembled the culture and then, obviously, how sports in many ways was ahead of time. It was Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier, etc. But not to get up on a tangent there. But you said when you went to school that you saw two things when you were at Vassar. One was the idea of those academics frowning upon the business portion of it being auction houses, so to speak, and then obviously being happy with you know if you want to go a museum route. And in some ways you're saying that what they said was that some people are art lovers and some are not. Would you consider yourself an art lover?

13:48 I'm absolutely an art lover. I don't love all art, I don't love everything I see, but I do love art and I do love the experience of going to look at art and think about art and I value very much artists and artists' contribution to our life, to our culture. Less about do you love art or do you not love art? But I think the discussion of money it takes away from art for art's sake, it takes away from the purity of something Because at the end of the day I'm working with very high net worth individuals and art is part of a portfolio Don't want to spend a lot of money on something that they don't feel will hold its value or increase in value.

14:30 So there is a whole business aspect of it and I think that's what I felt was a bit more frowned down upon, because then you're judging in a different way. It might be remarkable for its contribution in a canon, but if someone's not willing to pay money for it, I'm not really talking about it. So that is where you do see a divergence in interests between the commercial side and the academic side. I'm really excited to explore all these wonderful pieces of art that you had a chance to touch and to learn about and discover the amazing people you've met. The one question I want to ask about the beginning of your journey within the world of Christie's when you had to make the choice, or when you made the choice of entering the world of art and took the path that you did, did you meet any resistance from the art lovers or the traditionalists, like you described before, when you made the decision to take this path?

15:30 I think resistance is probably the wrong word, but yeah, maybe a little bit of judgment. You know, certainly when I left my PhD program to work at Christie, you know, I think in undergrad, so many people with art history degrees don't even work in art, christy, you know, I think in undergrad, so many people with art history degrees don't even work in art. Ultimately, I think that's a little. But you know, once you get to the point of graduate school and you know the program, I was in the PhD program, so I think you know the expectation was that you're finishing, that you're teaching or you're going to be a curator, and you know I took a different path and I left and so I think, yeah, a little bit of maybe judgment, maybe disappointment, you know from-. Did you have any hesitation at all? Of course, of course, yeah, I mean I felt it was the right thing for me but, like with any decision, one can question it.

16:21 So, yeah, I did have some hesitation but I ultimately I realized, you know, I wanted to be back in the workforce and I wanted to be working in a different environment than I was working in. And now, looking back on it, I mean, truly, I feel it was the best decision and absolutely the right decision for me at that time and with everything that's come of it since then, I'm so happy that I made that decision to quit. I mean, I looked at it as a leave of absence and I still do to some extent. I have a sort of pipe dream of finishing my PhD higher. How far into it were you, by the way. I did a couple of months of classwork, so I had a few years to go and what I saw was a lot of my contemporaries who stayed with it getting really hung up in their dissertation, losing interest in their dissertation topic, feeling like where am I going, what am I doing?

17:15 You know, I felt I just wasn't. It wasn't enough of a passion for me. To me I feel like maybe it is a retirement project, you know, when my kids are grown, when I hopefully don't need to work anymore like that for pure interest. But as far as advancing things for myself, for a career, I didn't have it in me to keep going with that. Understood and we should definitely point out that Christie's is bringing an amazing thing to the world and is an incredible institution. So I want to be clear that they are bringing something really special and magical. I just want to paint a clear picture of what the path was exactly, though. I mean, I guess I would ask you know. You said you were going for entry level when you left Vassar and tried to get into this world.

17:57 Is that still a viable way to get into this field is to just start from the bottom rung and be diligent and work your way up. Absolutely. You prove what you can do in your role and I manage a lot of people. I mentor a lot of people. Now I work with many people just starting out in their careers and I think that is my advice always Take your job and do it well. And I think it's hard. It's a different generation now also that I'm working with who are starting out, and I see a lot of desire for movement, forward, movement expectations. I've done this a certain amount of time, therefore, I should be advancing Sure.

18:39 Sure. And my world is not that way. There know, there's a limited pool of jobs. You have to be patient, you have to be diligent. You have to really, because there's also a million people ready to do your job. It's a really competitive field and it's different. I always compare it with like law. You know, you go into law, you're a first year, then you're second year. Everyone kind of advances the same. It does not happen that way here at all. But the best thing you can do is really excel, even if it feels like you're doing something mundane. Prove yourself in your role and your position and show your interest, because there's always room to expand. You know, when I was a coordinator back then I was called administrator I, you know I asked to write essays for the catalogs.

19:25 I wanted to do sort of extracurricular work. Learn more, learn about the objects, show your interest. But you know you have to be able to do your job well. Even if you think you know everything there is to know. You know about impressionism, modern art, like you have to be able to deal with an excel spreadsheet. It's a building block. The basics, the basics for sure you mentioned a moment ago about yourself becoming a mentor to people and we always talk about it here on the show is that mentors need mentors, so you know who is your greatest mentor. That's a good question. I've had a number of great mentors over the years and managers and managers that you know as I changed roles kind of stayed as mentors.

20:08 Are they one in the same? Like is a mentor, a manager Is a manager a mentor. No, I think you don't really want a mentor to be your direct manager, you know, I think they're not one in the same because, also, a mentor is somebody that you want to be able to go to with a problem, you know, with a challenge maybe that you wouldn't want to share with your direct manager. So I don't think they're necessarily one and the same. They can be, you know, but it's hard to be a really good manager. It really is. But I've benefited from some very good managers and from some not so great managers over the years and you know that's how you kind of take a little bit and understand what is your own style and you know what you could have benefited from having over the course of your career and then try to give that back as you're working with, you know, the next generation.

20:57 You know we're going to keep hitting the career journey path, but I just at this moment I just feel like I need to ask no-transcript, like a Roman coin or something like that, so cool I mean, can you put into words like what it's like to just have this access? It's pretty awe-inspiring, but it's also very humbling and you know a lot of the things that I see and that I work with.

21:38 Its presence in a sale is a moment in time that might not happen again for many years, and so that can be coming out of private collections where they've been for generations so unseen. Not everybody wants to lend to an exhibition, even if the picture has been requested by every museum across the world. Some families just don't do it. So you can see things that have been hanging in a home. Families just don't do it. So you know you can see things that have been hanging in a home enjoyed by a small group of people for multiple generations. And then it comes out. I mean we have exhibitions.

22:19 They're open to the public. What we write about a work will become part of that work's history. You know the research that we do, what we say about it. It becomes definite. That's a description that's going to follow this picture forever. Hopefully we get it all right. That's our goal. But we see these things, we show these things. People can come. It is technically open to the public. It's not something that's advertised, so you don't see hordes of individuals coming the way people come to museums, but technically one could. And then these are works that might leave the country, might not be seen for another, multiple generations. This could be the only time in like 200 or 300 years that this object is exhibited.

22:59 So that kind of access is remarkable and it is very awe-inspiring. So that kind of access is remarkable and it is very awe-inspiring, but then, like anything, it's also a physical object and part of our description of it, part of our making sure that we're selling it correctly, is describing what it is. And you have to think past the sort of art, historical narrative about it and get past that awe and look at it as paint on canvas or bronze with patination. And is it perfectly preserved? Probably not. You know, with historical work, so what has happened to it over time? And then you're really kind of analyzing it in a different way, in a formal way, as it's what it is physically made of. And when you break it down in that way there's no value.

23:42 I mean, what is it? It's materials basically. So what creates the value is like what does it do for you? It's really wonderful and really interesting. Shay's question kind of evoked this image in me of like you walking into this home and there's this beautiful, let's say, monet on the wall, something along those lines, but it's like you know it's over their TV set. you know seeing something like that it's like you know it's over their tv set. You know seeing something like that, or you know someone's got this priceless vase and it's using. It's used to, like you know, hold umbrellas so like so I'm just like picturing like this is like what it's like. Yes, this vase could be worth like seven million dollars, but you know we've been using it for decades to hold the umbrellas for everyone who comes in, comes into the house.

24:22 So that to me, kind of blows my mind. It's a thing in somebody's home. We use it to pop the door open, to let the breeze in All sorts of crazy things. You know household cleaners applied to sculptures being cleaned like a table, like you know, yeah, paintings in truly ridiculous but in the bathroom, like you know, yeah, and there are some people who are really invested in being, you know, good stewards of the material and see it as a you know, they're just holding on to something for a short period, but they have the kind of like understanding of the importance of preserving it.

25:04 And then some people who who don't, you know, they've inherited it or they don't know what they have. It's just something that's always been around, that they never thought much about. There's the gamut of all of these types of individuals. So, yeah, you see some really crazy installations, definitely yeah. Do you remember the first unbelievable piece of art that you were dear had access to as a young person coming up? What was that holy cow moment - like I can't believe, I'm standing and holding this. And where was it? Was it in the bathroom? I can't believe it's Jackson Pollock in the bathroom. my first year in the Impressionist and Modern Art Department.

25:48 Christie's sold works by Gustav Klimt that were restituted to the heirs of Adele Bachbauer, and that was really. That was amazing because that was my first. I mean, I was very early in my career. I wasn't holding, wasn't ever holding, the art, the paintings, but I remember thinking that this is first of all the history of the objects and also the quality. The fact that these were museum pictures and hence they are in a museum really amazed me. And look, 90% of what we sell is not of that level. It's a variety and there's many sub markets in this larger art market.

26:32 But that really blew me away as a sort of early first experience. I read that an auction is basically a show. Right, You're putting on a show is what you're doing right. Theater. Yeah, exactly, you have to keep interest and you're hyping it up and you're getting people interested and excited and that whole thing. But that takes an army. So you started kind of on the ground floor. What were the positions that you started with and how did you work your way up that ladder to the esteemed position that you are with now? Do you remember the moments of promotion or who you talked to or who gave you that opportunity?

27:14 Yeah, I do. I remember very well, I remember all of those moments and I think you know, when you think of the production of the auction, there's so much that goes into it. That is a back end, you know, that is even divorced from the art. You know we I'm on the specialist team, right, so I work with the artwork, but there's marketing, there's shipping, the logistics, there's the exhibition design, the hang. You know, I just want to say shipping, by the way, like I've worked in fields where it's not a work of art, and if you don't get that right in this world, that's a problem. That's a real problem. I mean, and also what we do, I mean is truly like move mountains in advance of an auction, in some cases for the top end pieces.

28:01 We're sending these works all over the world and so you know you need to have the right team in place, not only to transport them, but then in the location that you're sending it to. So a lot, you know a lot of the job is also talking with my colleagues in Hong Kong, in Taipei, you know, in London, in Paris, wherever we're sending the works, to prepare them and make sure they understand you know what they have. You know, and sometimes it's going and sometimes it's accompanying. We send specialists from New York onto the tours as well. But yeah, that movement is so important and that in itself it's global. I mean you're transcending cultures, you're transcending ways of working.

28:43 Sure Temperature humidity, yeah, climates yeah, absolutely. But yeah so it's such a big production and, you know, auctioneering in itself is not something I do, but that is such an art and such an extraordinary craft. So it really is a team. It's a big team that works together to put this all, to get this all live. And as far as myself and my own moments of promotion, yes, I remember the decision to leave Christie's to go to graduate school, which was a hard decision because I loved the team and I loved what I was doing. But you know, I was early in my career. It was, I was here three years out of college and it was, it was really my first series of jobs and I saw a lot of people had graduate degrees and I, you know I didn't want to have my resume thrown out for not having that and I had an interest.

29:37 You know I had learned now on the job. I understood the art world in a more concrete way than I did when it was much more abstract, you know, before I entered it, and so I wanted to keep going and I wanted to do more and I left again, not necessarily thinking I would come back. But then, when I decided to come back, I remember, you know, the woman who I worked with in museum services, who gave me a huge amount of latitude, a huge amount of freedom, really trusted me and I really trusted her and we had a great sort of working rapport. I was called an account manager, so it was a little more of a. It wasn't administrative, we were still in a support kind of function and I really I liked that job a lot because I traveled.

30:22 I traveled all over the US and saw all the museums, like all the museums in the country, the small, the regional, you know, and it was amazing to see what's been collected where throughout America and sort of the history of collecting in America. And I created a role for myself in that team as the associate director, eventually, of that department and it was not something, you know, it wasn't something that existed, but I was outgrowing the account manager and there were a few titles in between account manager and associate director. But you know, I pushed the limits and it was sort of like I want to do more and here's what I want to do and I think what I'm doing warrants this title. And you know, bless her, she gave it to me, she fought for me to have it and this is a pretty big organization and it's pretty bureaucratic, but she really believed in me and fought for that, so that was definitely a moment that I remember.

31:17 And then I came back into the Impressionist and Modern Art Department because I learned a lot about how to work with the clients and how to run business, but I really missed being more connected to the art, and so I wanted to get back with the art in a more hands-on way. I could hear so much ambition there, so I know that's like a vital part of how you were able to get to that next point in your life. We were talking before we came on here about you're fluent in Italian. You dabble in other languages. Is language a part of what has set you apart, that you're able to speak fluent Italian, and what are those other qualities that kind of set you apart and allowed you to get up that ladder and move in that career journey?

32:03 Look, I think language for art is really important. In graduate school you have to pass German reading, comprehension and at least one other romance language, and the art world is very international and for what I do with European art, I couldn't get away with just speaking English. So I think, yes, I think that's a benefit. I think some cultural fluidity is also important, because you know you're working with people from all over the world, so you have to have a little bit of a camouflage aspect in that way, I guess. So, yeah, I think that was important and otherwise I've just genuinely been very interested and passionate about this material and I think you know when, with clients that I work with, I think they appreciate the knowledge.

32:51 I work with a lot of clients who come from with a financial background and you know I have to talk, I have to converse with them, I have to talk their language. But I don't pretend that that is my forte, because it's not. I came to this not as a trader, not as a finance, but not looking at art as commodity, but coming from the academic background and then learning the financial part of it, and I think that works for some clients and for others. They want someone who's more like this is going to have a 6% return on investment year over year. That's not my year, that's not my style, that's not my thing, and I also think it's impossible to really say that. So, yeah, I think that that kind of real passion and knowledge, it's what I want to lead with, it's what I ask my team to lead with and, again, I think it's you see this a lot, as we discussed, of you know wanting to move forward, this idea to move forward, and I really believe you need you know.

33:50 At the time you're standing in front of a client and you get that opportunity, you really better know what you're talking about. So, like you, you know these are people who are really excelling in all of their various fields. Don't bullshit them. Get the knowledge, build it up through the library, build it up through spending time in the warehouse, build it up through being with the artwork, so that when you finally are put in front of them, you really can believe in your own expertise. I mean, that's what it's expertise, that's what sets you apart. There's a million art advisors, there's a million people, you know, willing to help you make an art collection. So to me, it's all expertise there's.

34:34 There's nothing else. There's nothing else to hold your hat on. You said you know, as a you know, larry Shea said before that he's a collector. I have to admit I'm a collector of I've been a longtime collector of comic books, and you talked about the notion of you guys, and we'll get back to a bit of the business aspect of it, which is setting the price for us for any, for any piece of art, right? So I know that, as a collector, the most basic idea is that rarity dictates price and a great deal, a great deal of the sense there. Um, and obviously we're dealing with, you know whether it be, you know whether it be, you know, a chagall or thing of that nature. He didn't make 50 copies of a specific painting, he made one. So, by definition, it's extremely rare. So, what are the factors that go into determining numbers behind the value of a painting?

35:20 We've had a couple of artists on this show who talk about hey, this is the amount of time I've spent on a specific painting. Therefore, I believe it's is the amount of time I've spent on a specific painting. Therefore, I believe it's worth X amount of dollars. So then, what are the factors that go into what makes a $100 million painting $100 million. Yeah, so it's definitely. Rarity is a big part of that Quality and the benefit I have. I don't work with living artists. I work with artists whose work is complete so I can look at it in its entirety and nothing else is being made. So nothing is going to be added to this and in fact, to take that a further level, things are only going to be taken away because works get donated to museums.

36:04 It's actually diminishing supply because nothing else is being produced. So the rarity and the quality, where does that work sit within an artist of, within an artist's body of work? Freshness, so provenance, again, the market loves something that's a discovery, that has been in a private collection, buried for decades, unseen, unknown, you know, versus something that has, you know, four years ago was seen on the dealer's booth at Basel and then was subsequently, you know, traded hands two years ago. The more things trade hands, you can't really quantify it, but the more something has traded hands in a way, the less desirable it is.

36:50 You wonder how come nobody's really living with it. So that provenance and that freshness is really important. Condition you know some things that are wonderful works of art but they're a wreck, you know. They've been holding the door open. I mean they had a bad conservation project, a bad conservation job done to it 50 years ago when conservation practices were very different. Paintings conservation is a relatively new phenomenon and there's a lot of things that were done in like the 50s and 60s that you would never do now. Did they have an intervention that has kind of irreparably damaged the value of the picture.

37:36 And then you know, we do rely upon comparables because, even though everything, you know, I don't do prints, I don't do multiples, everything bronzes are edition pieces, so, but paintings, drawings, it's all unique works of art, but there't do multiples, everything I bronzes are edition pieces, so, but paintings, drawings, it's all unique works of art, but there's comparables. So you know, like, take Monet, monet worked in series, so you know there's certain series Haystacks, the Nymphaeus, these are the top end. There's other series, you know, that are lesser value, so you're still working within a range of values for any given type of object. And then it really, you know, so you're still working within a range of values for any given type of object, and then it really, you know, so you're looking at comparables, but the way we train it really is like a muscle, the pricing muscle. So you're wanting to develop a gut feeling where, yes, you.

38:22 Then you know, you double check, you look, you see, you know what else has sold at what prices. But you're really trying to gain, like a reflex, to be able to assess a work of art and put a value on it. So those are all of the factors that come into play. Where do the artists? Sorry, sorry. Larry. Like you know some artists are just worth more than others. Period. Right, right. Where do you find the works of art? I imagine some people bring things forward. Do you try to secure things and do you seek things out? how antique roadshow is it? I mean that's kind of got to be the question, right?

39:03 Yeah, I mean, the nice thing about working somewhere like Christie's is the power of the brand. So you know, everybody knows Christie's, everybody knows Christie's and Sotheby's. You know, and if you have a valuable work of art, you are going to usually make at least those two phone calls. And this is, you know, excluding dealers. And you know, but you know, for the auction route you're going to make those two phone calls. So because of the power of the brand, there is a lot of reaction. It's a little morbid, but the times in which somebody is selling it's the sort of fundamentals of the business are the three Ds, which is death and debt and divorce.

39:48 So those are the times that people need to sell their artwork. Wow, rough times. So you're also in therapy and you have spent a lot of time with people. That's the best part of their life. Nobody does it. To just start with the world Arbitration? It's not glamorous. And then I should add there can be a bit of a seven-year itch with artwork also. You know people just want to like, redo. I've been living with something. I'm getting tired of it. But a lot of at least for my field a lot of it is estates and you know the next generation either will often can't live with everything because they have that estate tax to pay. And also, what do you divide among siblings?

40:30 You can't divide an object, you can divide money and it keeps it a little easier. It keeps things equitable from families that might be siblings. Everyone has their family dynamics right, so it's like you have to just divide. And so that's often when we get involved and it's a very emotional time in people's lives. You know when someone has passed away and you're entering somebody's life at a time of challenge and emotion and you know they have all of this to deal with. But selling and dividing the money is always like a very clean, easy way to do it. So I'm losing my. I lost my train of thought. Why was I talking about this?

41:11 Just how? you find, so yeah a lot comes to us. But, then you know there's a lot that we do proactively also and that's part of working with clients. The buying side you know I have someone who is looking for X. Let me go out and find it and make that match. Try to convince somebody to sell because I have a buyer for it. So I'd say it's mostly. It's probably maybe 70% reactive, 30% proactive. But that's also because you know we're lucky, people call us.

41:55 Yeah, while we're at this particular bus stop, it seems like a good time to ask the cast of characters that you must deal with on a day-to-day basis. No names, you don't have to name any names. Begins to be cool, right? I mean, you must have story after story of like dealing with individuals both inside the auction world and outside you know, that are selling or what have you, or purchasing. You must have a cast of characters, story or two, have you, or? purchasing, you must have a cast of characters, story or two. There's a lot of really fascinating and eccentric personalities, and that is both you know people I work with and also you know internally and externally with the clients.

42:45 So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of stories, some stones are best left unturned, knowing that you can't tell those stories. I'm curious have you ever dealt with a fraud? Has anybody ever brought something forward that was not real, that you eventually uncovered along the way? Frequently word that was not real, that you eventually uncovered along the way. Frequently, I, I, I'd say, ma'am, we look at at least one fake work every day. I mean, we get sent oh, there's a lot of a lot of it, doesn't you know? You hit delete like it's pretty, it's pretty clear, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of fakes, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of fakes, there's a lot of fakes, there's a lot of forgeries out there.

43:30 It just is what it is again, a lot of it is very poorly done. You know, I think also with a lot of modern art. You hear, sometimes people are like, oh, like I could do that, you, you can't. And when you try to, I say that all the time I got that I can do that. And you know you, it is like you know it's the same muscle Like you, you just know you, just you, you know, do things get by? Of course, and there is a. You know there's an authentic, there's a formal authentication process for a lot of the artwork that that I handle.

44:11 But you know we're pretty good first guard that we're not going to even put something through that process that we don't believe in. But you see, fake stamps, fake stickers, fake like exhibition labels, fake provenance I mean the gamut really and then some things that are just copies. So you know you say no, that's actually, you know the MFA Boston. So I know you don't have it. But yeah, people send a lot of things that are not real. It's a great question, though there's so many other things we want to get to. There's a billion things here but I want to talk about, like, a life in the day. Is there a standard life?

44:52 But I think I want to know at this point, like, have you caught the bug? Have you ever gone to an auction? Like, do you have a collection yourself? Are you seeking pieces? How many grenades? do you have on the wall? Yeah, right, so. I do have a collection, but it's mostly artists that I know. So my husband, my husband is a painter. That's a hobby mostly. But we have a lot of, you know, friends who are artists and so you know, for us the artwork that we have is very personal. We know most of the artists. I wish I had Monet's, but also I know I'm not in a position in my life right now to steward them appropriately because I have a six-year-old and a 14-month-old, so they're going to get nowhere near no no bolognese on the wall If.

45:33 I could afford it, but you know. Little spaghetti sauce over there, a sip of butter up there. I will not put anything through that. And yes, I have caught the bug I love. And yes, I have. You know I have caught the bug. I love looking and discovering, you know, little things like in auctions. You know I don't really bid on them because, again, I don't feel like I'm in a good place in my life to bring valuable things into my home. But you know, the art that we have is all very personal and a lot of my husband's work also Very good. So let's get back to the you know a day in the life kind of thing Like is there a typical day slash week, that you, they're all different?

46:15 I could see you shaking, just like changes everything you know and that can be coming from a client who you never thought would sell their ex and all of a sudden they want to talk about it and you know you're not prepared. You have no, you have no foresight for that and and there you are, having that discussion someone could?

46:55 Pass away someone you know, who you use collection you know, but wouldn't you know, wasn't on your, on your radar to become available, could pass away and all of a sudden, there it is. it is you mentioned Sotheby's. Is it competitive? when that happens. Extremely. Yeah, extremely. Is it like Clash of the Titans? I'll come in at this number and I'll give you a minimum of this. Yeah, you're pitching your services and of course, that's about the price, because, again, the pricing is set by us, right With it's by the experts, like what do we think we can sell this for?

47:35 And so who? Everyone wants to hear higher price not always the right move, but everybody wants to hear lower commission. And we've got to charge, so right. So then it's about you know how much do we believe in it, how much do we want it, and we go often head to head with Sotheby's. Do you guarantee a minimum? We will we can we do? Either Christie's does or we contract with third parties to do that. And so I'd say you know that's of interest for some sellers and not all, because you're guaranteed a minimum. But in exchange for that kind of insurance policy you have to give up a portion of the upside.

48:19 So you know it depends on how risk averse you are. Some people are gamblers, some people want to play, some people want say you know, I believe in my work, put it in naked, unbacked. I'll even take a lower estimate because I know it's going to do so well, and then- Welcome to the show. And then others want an insurance policy and some want a high price that's unachievable, and we walk away and say, you know, we just don't think we can do this for you. So this is where, yeah, you get differing opinions sometimes, and then sometimes you really get the houses fighting to work with your material.

49:00 You know you mentioned a moment ago about the how you, how are these collections come into your, come into your, your house? Is that the case that your your day-to--day or not your day-to-day, but your Rolodex is essentially people you constantly or you essentially deal with all the time, whether they be brokers or collectors. It just can't simply be like the random family that comes in and says, hey, I've got a garage full of unbelievably valuable paintings. I mean, there must be an ecosystem, yeah there is very much an ecosystem and you know it's a big team, it's a big international team and we work together and we communicate together so that we are delivering the best service you know to our clients worldwide.

49:42 That said, sometimes there are randoms, sometimes there is a random walk-in. You know it happens, but for the most part things are very. You know the people in the art world. The people who we know have art are very well covered and you want to yeah, you want to be engaging with them. Of course, a natural time to do so is during the sales, because you are, you know, you invite into the exhibition even if you're not buying or selling the season. If you love art, you love coming to see. So it's an upkeep of a relationship is a huge part. It's historically really a relationship-driven business. You want to make sure that you're in a position to get that call.

50:24 You often will have to compete for it, but if you have the right relationship with the seller or the buyer, you know you, you, you can do more for the clients. You know, and we've talked a little bit about the notion of what, let's say, how do you envision your role in all of this? I mean, obviously you've you have the academic background where you know there's the idea of arts for art's sake, but you're also obviously on the other side of that, where, where art is a commodity, uh, there is a price to it. What does he? What do you feel your responsibility is in this world? About maintaining, uh, about maintaining this, uh, this rather unique, uh, this unique form?

51:05 Uh, here Is it. Are you, are you, uh, is it more that you are someone who wants to deal more with the idea of art for art's sake, or is it that you do have a business to run? Well, there's definitely a business to run. I couldn't exist in a world of art for art's sake, doing what I do, and so for me it's really, when I'm working with sellers, I really want to get the most money possible for them. And you know, with buyers you want to make sure they're paying a fair price. But what an object might be worth to one person and to another person can be different, right, based on their needs and based on what they want. To another person can be different, right, based on their needs and based on what they want.

51:49 And you know, some people have been looking for the thing for so long and never found the thing right, and then when they have it, like they're willing to pay more for it than somebody who just comes in and is like yeah, I like it you know. oh, that would fit perfectly in my bathroom, Like you know. I can use the door open. So there's different. You know there's different needs, but fundamentally you want to make sure that you're leading with integrity Right and like. For me, there's not any transaction, there's not any single transaction that would be worth undermining the integrity, because these are long lasting relationships and whatever I will get out of a transaction, if it's undoing a relationship it's.

52:35 It will never be worth it. Now you you bring up the word integrity, which leads me to a question that that I'd wanted to get to. So this might be a little bit of a left-hand turn. However, I'm curious about rights to different works of art. You know, before I asked about authentication and validation of things, ownership Do people bring works of art forward that they do not have the rights to or do not have the ownership history with, like I think about World War II, for example, and so many pieces of art that were taken from people's homes and people's families and were distributed all throughout the world how do you verify ownership of a piece of art?

53:21 So current ownership and historical ownership right, two different things. So current ownership there are rights and warranties that somebody has to give when they sign a contract with us. Ultimately, if you can produce the picture, that's a good sign. Things get filtered through the art loss registry, right, so to make sure that we're not dealing with anything that's stolen. And it does happen that we're sent things that people are prospecting or you know. Every now and then, you know, you'll even get the feeling like this picture was taken at a party and somebody's like asking for a value and they don't really own it.

54:08 So you just you have to use your judgment, you have to talk to the people who you're working with and you can figure it out. You can figure it out pretty easily when somebody is in control and yeah, and it's experience right If it feels right or doesn't feel right. Historical ownership is a whole other big topic, you know, because somebody could own something today that was taken. You know, you take the case of Nazis like was taken from a previous owner unlawfully, and you know. But that doesn't mean that the person who owns it today doesn't own it. But there is going to be work to do right, there's going to be a reckoning to be had.

54:50 So and this is something that you see a lot in my field because of the time that the works were produced and what they lived through. So that's why being able to delineate and be clear about the wartime provenance is really important. You know, and there's certain artists that the Nazis took right. There's a lot of artists that were just collected by Jewish families in Germany and Austria and those are. You know you have to be extra careful when you're looking at those artists and make sure that you really are able to understand the wartime provenance.

55:32 But it's hard. It can be like looking for needle in a haystack sometimes. So it's a lot of work and we'll hold things out of a sale so that we can do that work and make sure that when we do present to the world that we can pass on a clear title. Great answer no. Wrong Choices is a show about chasing your dreams, and that's kind of how we started this whole conversation. So I have to ask you, I mean, are you living the dream right now, like it feels like you're at the pinnacle of your career? Like your job seems so super glamorous, like where else Is there any place to go up for you, because I feel like you're at the pinnacle, like no. There certainly, is there certainly I mean there's many levels above me at christie's but like, yeah, I mean I, I'm very, I'm very interested in my work.

56:21 You know, and I, yeah, the smile is clear. I do love my job look, am I doing exactly what I want to be doing every moment of every day? Of course not. There's aspects of my job that I find totally boring, that I don't want to do and that, you know, intrigue me, and there, you know, there's the mundane for every any work. But fundamentally, I really do like what I do and you know it keeps me going. It keeps me going. You know I really do like what I do and you know it keeps me going. It keeps me going. You know I mentioned I have young kids. Like it's hard. It's hard right now, but I don't want to sacrifice this that I've worked so hard to build. And you know I'm at a position, at least having been here for so long, where I can find my balance and make sure that I'm able to do both.

57:07 You know, am I doing both as well as I could and want to? Probably not, but something's got to give, you know, and so I make sure I can stay balanced with that. But ultimately, what I feel is on the other side, you know, when they're older and when I still have this is going to be amazing and keep me going. Before we let you go and I know we've, before we let you go, I know we got to let you go. We were looking at the Chrissy's website before we got on myself and Larry Samuels, and I noticed that they that it recently had sold a Picasso, a vase that Picasso had planted on, which sold for a little over half a million dollars. And it just seems to me like that seems like so, so cheap, it's a bargain.

57:48 So I was like seem like that, seems like so, so cheap bargain. So I was like I was joking with like half a million, I'd buy two of them. How does that happen my god. Well, so those vases are additions, so they're not unique, right? So picasso himself did not paint them. They were based on picasso's designs, but the volume they're not even real, Picasso's selling for half a million? I couldn't recall, but you know the vase. I think you are the vase you might be speaking about. Actually, it's something that came to mind. I don't know if it's this one or not, but I'll say I did have an experience with a vase where, when we looked, when we, you know, examined it and went to look inside it, there were pistachio shells.

58:30 Oh, geez. Absolutely. I'd pay a half million for that. Oh, that's perfect For Pablo Picasso's pistachio shells. It's a functional thing that someone at a party put pistachio shells Great. That is very, very fun. They use it to prop the door open there you go. So, vanessa? Final question before we let you go A young person who wants to enter this world, who looks and sees Vanessa and says I want to be her someday. What advice do you have for somebody who's starting out in this world? Take any job where you can prove yourself, because, especially here, it's getting the foot in the door right.

59:14 And once you, once you're here and you can show that you are hardworking, that you're diligent, that you're thoughtful, creative, I really believe, like there, there are many paths and I think that's it. Do do your job. Do your job well, rather than you know. Of course, you want to have ambition, you want to have objectives, you want to have dreams, but I really believe in the building blocks and I really believe that you're not going to get that step unless you can excel in what you're doing. So take what you've been given and excel in it. You're get a position at the front counter.

59:58 Be the best person at the front counter. Be the person that everybody says oh, they know what's going. I'm going to go ask them because I know I'm going to get the answer that I want. I'm going to get the answer that I want. I'm going to get the attention that I want. You know, take whatever you have and really do it, because that is going to give people the belief that's going to make you grow. And you're always learning. That's the thing you have. You have access to this world. You're learning, even if it seems like maybe you're not doing the exact thing that you want to do, learn from it. You know you're you're. You know filing things. Read what you're filing, learn about it. And I think you know having that curiosity and that drive.

1:00:41 To me, it's like you can't teach that. You teach a lot about the role any role right you can teach the role. You can teach a lot about the role any role right, you can teach the role. But you can't teach that kind of fundamental drive and that understanding right. So I think that for me, you know, it's what I've built my career in and I really believe in it and it's what I look for, you know, and what I tell people who, like, are here and want to do the next thing and it's like, well, you got to nail this first. Well, that is great advice and you clearly have lived that, because what you have achieved is quite remarkable and and absolutely fascinating for our listeners out there.

1:01:27 I've known Vanessa for a little bit and I discovered what she does for a living not that long ago and I immediately said I have to find a way to get her on this program. So, Vanessa, thank you for finally breaking down and joining us today. Thank you, it's been a great conversation. So that was Vanessa Fusco of Christie's, who so generously and graciously agreed to come on the program with us today. Tushar, what are your key takeaways? My one big takeaway is how many questions I had left to ask this morning. The amount of questions that we left on the table are amazing. We could have spoken to her for another hour. Let's go for part two.

1:02:08 Yes, such a fascinating conversation. Um, it really is a mysterious world for all of us, right? I mean, we just kind of see the end result, uh, of anywhere, we, of anytime. We see these auctions when they're for big dollars, etc. So you've always got to wonder, like, what does it be? What does it mean to be that person who's kind of in it all the time? And I was very surprised by the fact that, you know, she understands her role within this world. Right, she's part art lover but also part business person, because that's where she kind of stands on that. She stands on that fence, that fence line there, which is, you know, she is not an academic, but she understands the academics who kind of turn their nose up to this world.

1:02:48 But at the same time, without the, without the sale of these paintings, you know, in many cases people would never know that they exist, people would never know that, that these types of that, these types of works of truly timeless art are out there and that, you know, it's the glamour to it that sometimes is so wonderful. She, she has a glamorous life, let's be honest, she's got a really cool job. And when you said, hey, sam, at the end of it, a piece of advice for someone who's young and wants to get into the industry. What about someone who's 53? years old and wants to get into the industry. Come on. Somehow I can't make a change as well. I would love to be part of that right, it's timeless for a couple of reasons. One is that, you know, you don't simply have to be a lover of art, because I think at the end of it, it's also about being the idea of a collector.

1:03:34 Right, shay, you talked about it, you're a coin collector, I'm a comic book collector, so I understand that notion of you know there's a certain amount of real awesome gamesmanship to the hunt of finding things, to the hunt of finding the provenance behind things, finding things, to the hunt of finding the provenance behind things. And then also you want to have cool stuff in your collection. At the end of the day, I think that's that is just an unbelievably cool job and, to kind of pull the veil off that a little bit, I was really, really enthralled by the whole conversation yeah, those are great, great points. t? um not to be too generic, but I mean it's quite simple do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life, I mean but you could just hear her passion and her joy when she was talking about what she does for a living and it shows and I'm sure it's displayed in the way she does her job as well and I was really struck by her advice stuff.

1:04:23 You know, and I always am. I always try to really dig into that advice because I think that's that's the important thread of this show. She talked about getting in the door and do the job. If you're going to get the front desk job, be the best front desk person there, the person who has all the answers You're filing. Read the files, learn something. When I started working for Steely Dan a million years ago, it was my first job out of college. That's what I did and it was as simple as like learn how to answer the phones properly. What do I say? What do I not say? You know, do I say this person's here or do I just be vague? If I'm going to clean the bathroom and I mean it people make it sparkle man.

1:05:08 Because if you're going to do the job, the only way you're going to graduate to that next job is if you do it with joy, do it with ease and do it with perfection, and that's what life is all about and be a joy to work with. We talk about that all the time too. Who wouldn't want to work with Vanessa after this interview? I mean, she's a delight. So you know, just be a good person, do the job and do it with conviction, and and I think that's a great deal of a. It reminds me a great deal of a book I read years ago. You know one of these. One of these, uh, another one of these, like you know, timeless, uh, business books written by pat riley actually the winner within right, where the line in the book is never demean your time in the trenches. And that's really what her, her basic advice, is right.

1:05:48 Never demean your time in the trend in the trenches's really what her basic advice is right. Never demean your time in the trenches. You said it yourself. If you're going to get coffee for people, oh my God, be the best person out there who gets coffee, for everybody knows what everyone wants, et cetera. You want to be. You know you're going to file papers for the day. Well, learn whatever the hell you can about the business that you're in. I mean, part of it is you have and she's right no-transcript. You've got to be at least showing a certain amount of aptitude for what you're doing, and that is work ethic from within. For sure. You know the phrase that I was thinking of as she was talking about. That is, the cream always rises to the top, and I've managed many teams in my lifetime and run companies, and you can always tell who that special person is, or who those special people are that one way or another, are going to find a way to make it up the ranks and really be stars.

1:06:45 And it's from within. It's a passion, it's a drive, it's a way of being, it's a way of life, and I thought that was very interesting advice. You know, another key takeaway for me was being a product of your environment. You know, growing up in New York City and having access to all of these museums and all of this culture, these museums and all of this culture and that's where I am talking to you all from right now is something really extraordinary and really special. And she had the opportunity to take advantage of all of those things and clearly it showed her a world that many other people might not see, and she wrapped her arms around it and created a path that, again, is truly extraordinary.

1:07:31 So, vanessa, thank you again for joining us on this episode of no Wrong Choices. Good yeah, I liked it. We also thank you for joining us. If this episode inspired you to think of somebody who could be a great guest, please let us know via the contact page of our website, which can be found at norongchoicescom. Be sure to check out our blog with takeaways from each episode while you're there. We also ask that you support the show by following us on LinkedIn, instagram, facebook, youtube X and Threads On behalf of Larry Shape, tushar Saxena and me, larry Samuels, thank you again for joining us.