When One Dream Leads to Another | Kristin Piro & David Gordon

Why Theater Wine Fails

David Gordon 0:00

When we had the idea, we went to some of our closest friends and we said, we're gonna start this company called Intermission Cellars with the ideology uh that theater wine sucks and we're gonna change that, you know, because it does suck. and uh and you pay a fortune for it. I went to a lot of uh folks and they were like, it's easy to make wine, it's really hard to sell it. And I said, I've been selling myself my entire life. I disagree.

Meet The Performer Winemakers

Larry Samuels 0:32

Hello and welcome to No Wrong Choices. I'm Larry Samuels, and I'll be joined in just a moment by Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea. This episode features the winemaking stage performers Kristin Piro and David Gordon. Before we bring them in, please be sure to like, follow, or subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching right now. Let's get started. Now, joining No Wrong Choices are Kristin Piro and David Gordon. They are accomplished stage performers, winemakers, entrepreneurs, and most importantly, husband and wife. Kristin and David, thank you so much for joining us.

Kristin Piro & David Gordon 1:11

Thanks for having us.

Larry Samuels 1:12

Absolutely. So we like to set the stage by asking our guests, and and this is I think the second time we've had two people. So hopefully we'll we'll get through this smoothly. But we like to ask our guests to sort of set the stage for us in terms of telling us who they are and what they do. So let me set things up like this. Kristin, I'll lead with you. If you were to bump into somebody on the street who said, Hey, what are you doing these days? What would you tell them?

Kristin Piro 1:41

taking care of an infant and a toddler. Most most currently. But um, yeah, I would say that I'm actively in the Broadway community and um auditioning as much as I can, but also making wine, which feels more relevant for the the time being and more um more needed because of taking care of that infant and Tom.

David Gordon 2:08

And David? Sure. I would probably say I just finished a show in New York. I just finished a move to New York City, and I'm just finished my sixth harvest, and I hopefully am not finishing my marriage.

Larry Samuels 2:26

Uh what show did you just finish?

David Gordon 2:30

Yeah, I just finished uh an off-Broadway show called A Walk on the Moon at the Roundabout Laura Pells Theater. It was great

Finding The Performing Bug

David Gordon 2:36

and it was fun.

Tushar Saxena 2:36

All right, so guys, I'm Tushar. Nice to meet you both, and so glad that uh you've taken some time out to speak with us. Appreciate it. performing for both of you, you've longtime performers. Has that always been the bug you've wanted to deal with?

Kristin Piro 2:48

I think so. You know, people ask me often, like, when did you first realize you wanted to perform professionally and sing and dance on stage? And I really don't have a moment that was like an aha. Like I saw this show and I thought I had to do it. I started dancing when I was two. So it just always felt like this is what I'm doing. It wasn't even a question. It was what I've started doing as soon as I could walk and continued on, you know, dancing competitively and with ballet companies, and then transitioned into singing and acting as well and doing stage musicals. And um, yeah, it's it's just been a passion of mine or like a hobby that has luckily been my career also, which I know a lot of people can't say that. And I feel honored that I'm able to do what I love as my profession as well.

David Gordon 3:35

I'm gonna add to that because she's leaving out a lot of great details. Because as performers, everyone thinks we are really good at talking about ourselves, but we're actually, in fact, well, at least for the two of us, we're not. Uh that's a great way to start a podcast. Uh but um when I met Kristin and she was telling me these things, she has stories of that you'll say better, but about like when she was 16 years old coming into the city and auditioning for things, not really thinking she would get them and get them. And they would call you, you tell them.

Kristin Piro 4:04

Well, you know, I I'm fortunate to have grown up in New Jersey. So I always also felt like I've just lived in New York my whole life because it's been so accessible. So I um I went to a performing arts high school and knew early on that I didn't really want to necessarily go to college for singing and dancing. My parents were like, You already sing and dance. I really don't want to pay for you to go and keep doing that. If you want to go like for something else, then we'll then you go to college. But right now you're kind of already doing it, you're doing it well. Why don't you give it a shot in New York and see how it goes? And because again, I was so close to the city, I was able to audition for things weekly and take the bus in to take dance class with current Broadway performers before their shows. And so I was really immersed in it and I did have the drive to be able to do my own studying in New York that wasn't in a conservatory program in a college. So I I auditioned for things at a young age just to kind of see where I landed. Like, would I be able to get this job if I tried? And at 16, I had, you know, the Fosse company calling my house because I've lived obviously with my parents. I was a junior in high school. And they were like, is Kristin there? And they're like, This is her mother. And they're like, Oh, okay. Well, um, she got this job. It's a national tour. And uh, we wanted to offer her the role. And my mom was like, She can't go on tour. What are you kidding me? She's not, if you're not gonna go to college, you have to at least finish high school. Thankfully, I auditioned for a lot of things early on, got them, but had to turn them down until I was at least 18, and then did my first national tour of Saturday Night Fever at 18 around the country for two years and kind of catapulted into the business professionally. And uh yeah, done a handful of Broadway shows since then. And I feel really fortunate, again, to be like doing what I've loved for so long and be able to like do it on that scale and share it with so many people.

Auditions, Rejection, Thick Skin

Larry Shea 5:58

Yeah, that's special. Larry Shea here. Really nice to meet you both. Thanks for for joining us. As an aspiring actor myself, I've since given up on that because I can't handle rejection very well. but I'm just curious if you appreciate the audition process. Kristin, it's this question isn't for you because it sounds like you get everything you audition for, apparently. So, David, like, do you both embrace the auditioning performance? Because it is a business of rejection, and you just have to have thick skin, unless, of course, like you're like Kristin and you're getting everything and then no rejection.

Kristin Piro 6:34

Yeah. I will let me just do a little bit and go ahead. I was told early on that auditioning is the vocation and the job is the vacation because you have to know nine times out of ten, you're not getting the gig. So you have to love the process of doing it and learning new material and putting yourself out there and knowing I did the best that I could. If I don't book this, it's not on me. I wasn't the right height, or the type, or the voice part, or the flexibility in the you know, dance aspect, what was needed. And so saying it and remembering that in that way has made it easier for me with the rejection. But it gets harder as you get older because your priorities change and all of a sudden you need the health insurance and you need the money and you need those things. And when you're younger, you really go balls to the wall because you have nothing to lose, you know. But David auditions more frequently than me at the moment, and he's really, really good at it, especially when things nowadays are more self-tapes, which you know.

David Gordon 7:33

I just want to point out that I I just got a compliment from my wife. That was awesome. It's rare these days. Uh no, I'm kidding. I love you. I definitely do audition a lot, and I definitely get a lot of no's, and that's hard. And especially as uh a person who likes to provide, and I have a family of, well, we'll we'll say a family of four now, uh, the rejection does get more difficult. And Kristin would oftentimes go in for Kristin helped me a lot when we first started dating because, you know, she would go in and she would audition for the ensemble, which is actually a lot harder than the role I go in for one of the lead roles. And you would think that's harder, but it's actually in my eyes not. They have to like create characters throughout the show. They're working in the front at a front desk in one scene, and the next they're dancing in the background, like the ensemble. So they're creating six different characters on their own. Whereas I'm handed a script, I'm handed a role, I have an arc to my story, and I go in and I try to tell that the best I can in audition. Now, I'm gonna rewind a little bit. I've always said that I love auditioning because it's a chance to perform and we don't get enough chances to perform as actors. And so I always walked in and I was like, this is my time for the week that I get to perform. Again, like Kristin said, as I've gotten older, I choose the auditions differently now. You know, with my agents and things like that, they are so aware of my family and so incredibly supportive of my family. And so I turned down a lot of auditions, which for me, that's really hard for me. I didn't grow up turning down auditions. That's like turning down jobs, that's turning down money, that's turning down. But when it's not right, it's actually okay. You know, if your goal is to stay in New York more, then you stay, you have to wait for those auditions. But what happens with that is those auditions, they they weigh a lot more. So all of a sudden they they're few and far between, but you're getting these bigger auditions, let's say. And when you do get the no, uh, it's really freaking hard, you know. and so I take it a lot differently than Kristin does. And she has helped me along the years. And, you know, part of it is out of sight, out of mind. I'm not gonna lie. Uh thankfully I don't have a great memory and I just forget it.

Larry Samuels 9:36

Be a goldfish, right?

Kristin Piro 9:38

So until the cast list comes out and I go, that's who got it over me.

David Gordon 9:46

And yeah, suddenly I'm not a I'm a piranha.

Larry Samuels 9:48

Well, David, take us back

David’s Late Start That Worked

Larry Samuels 9:50

a little bit. So we've learned how Kristin got into the business, you know, making national tours at the age of 16 because she was gifted and talented. What about you? How where did the bug come from? How did you get started in this world?

David Gordon 10:02

Yeah. I grew up with a large family. My aunt was a professional performer. Uh, my mom played the piano. Uh she was like a prodigy when she was, I think she was like 12 years old and she was playing West Side Story for the high school. She was on on the piano. So uh my dad liked to dance on tables, I'm told. Uh we'll talk about that in another podcast.

Larry Samuels 10:22

in Irish pubs? Yeah, it was that great.

David Gordon 10:25

And my grandmother oftentimes was kind of a director at the JCC for you know local production. So it was around me. Arts were around me, and I wanted nothing to do with it. I was a skater kid. I was always an entrepreneur at heart. I had a skateboard company with my buddy Ian at 13. I had a photography videography company at 17, 18. I've had hat companies, shirt companies. I just, you know, but then all of a sudden, this girl gave me attention.

Larry Samuels 10:53

Always girl.

David Gordon 10:54

I know it's so cliche. But I was uh I was in high school, and I'm not gonna lie, I was uh I was a heavy, heavy guy. I was kind of the class clown. I was I I don't want to say like a bully, but I was just kind of lost, you know. And uh Nikki La Piana, I remember her name, she invited me to uh too.

Tushar Saxena 11:13

Yeah, yeah.

David Gordon 11:17

uh but she invited me, she said, why don't you come audition for the school musical? And I was like, I would never, that's like for you know, lame kids who do theater and stuff like that. Uh, we see how that went. But um the I I I went into the audition and it was my junior year, and I sat in the back and I uh they called my name, I ran out. It's like the high school musical movie. Like it's like I ran out of the back, and my mom was like, How are you supposed to go in and audition for something that you've never done? You've never been on stage, you've never so I uh I got a voice teacher and it was in a neighboring town where nobody knew. And she said, I'm music directing. Bye-bye, Bertie. I think you should come audition. And I was like, I don't know, how far away is it from here? You know? And uh I ended up getting one of the lead roles in that. Oh, and I was like hooked. And I my entire personality changed. I started doing better in school. I started like having confidence the way I should have confidence. and I just felt like alive. Oh my God, I could get emotional uh talking about it. It's funny. and I I suddenly was like doing back-to-back shows at every community theater I could find. I started doing them at college levels, and then all of a sudden it was college time, and I thought I was gonna go to into radio, television, and film. And I got accepted into Chapman, which was a great school for film. I got accepted into Cal Stic Fullerton, which has ended up where I went for film and television. And I was gonna minor in theater because I my my stepdad, who's a doctor, always very supportive of the arts, also a jazz pianist. And uh he had said, Look, David, I I support you in whatever and uh whichever way you want, but I know you and you like nice things. And I'm not taught, you know, you like toys. And that's like, you know, little toys, but it's a hard business. And he wasn't wrong, but I didn't listen and I'm glad I didn't. And he always tells me, I'm so glad you never listened to me because I quickly switched my majors. I didn't have a great college experience, and I left my after my sophomore year and I auditioned randomly for at 20 years old for the international tour of Greece, the musical. After the school basically said, No, you're not continuing on. I uh two weeks later booked my first international tour and I was out on the road at 21 years old. Wow. It was the best time of my life. I spent a year traveling Europe um and performing all over. And since then, I haven't really stopped. I'm really grateful to be able to say that. I've sang and danced, well, attempted to dance in um in 34 countries and about 40 states.

Larry Shea 13:55

That's what's amazing. Yeah. you know, we we always look at this show as like a roadmap for people who want to follow in the footsteps of the people we're interviewing. It sounds like you guys really just dove in and were actually doing it, but I know there was formal training prior to that that happened. You know, you don't just get up on stage and sing and dance and act, and it doesn't just happen like that.

Speaker 7 14:17

Right,

Training, Discipline, Show Business Math

Speaker 7 14:18

right.

Larry Shea 14:18

So I I wanted to share a recent experience I had um from young children who wanted to get into acting. They knew I was doing acting. And of course, the first thing I say to them is, Oh, you know, get Julia Cameron's book and learn how to use your instrument and read great plays and read this book. And and they just looked at me like I had foreheads and they're like, Read? I have to read it. I just I want to know, like, was that your training as well? How have things changed over the years? Is it very different now for people who do want to follow in your footsteps?

Kristin Piro 14:49

I think it is different for people. You know, I was again like I had the um discipline, which I think was from dancing at such a young age. Like, I I that environment bred discipline and responsibility, and this is on you to be better. It's not necessarily a team sport at that moment. You know, this is you're competing with yourself to be better and better and better. And I remember in my voice lessons that I started taking when I was nine, I had said to my voice teacher, I don't think I want to go to college. Like I just want to do, like, start doing this. I'm already doing it. And I remember my mom who would drive me to those voice lessons, she would sit in the kitchen and wait for me because it was only 45 minutes. And my voice teacher saying, if there was one person I would say to just go for it, it would be you. And I wouldn't say that to anybody else because I was, you know, 13, going on 30 my whole life. I I was always more mature than I should have been, even in high school. And and I think to have that, you know, though that setup where I did my own research. When I was auditioning for a show, I would read the play, I would watch the musical, any bootleg or YouTube, we had that, thank God. I would do that research, what costumes they wore, so I could suggest that in my audition. So I'm coming in looking like the part. I'm not leaving anything to the imagination. If you hire me, this is what I'm gonna look like. So it takes somebody to be able to do that. If you're not really ready for that, which most people, let's face it, at 17 or 18 going into college, aren't they? need that structure of a program to tell them what to read and to study and to practice. And I thankfully surrounded myself with mentors and and teachers that I paid for myself individually and in the city that that kind of pushed me to do that on my own. And I think a lot of what is lacking, like I grew up again in Jersey with a lot of really talented kids that were my age doing community theater. And I'm the one of the only ones that really continued to pursue it. We were all very good, but you're, you know, you're great in how will New Jersey. But when you get to the city, everybody's good. There's just talent everywhere. So it's not really about that. It's who's gonna stick it out, who's gonna get past the rejection. And I think sometimes in schools, from what I hear now when I teach, you know, younger people, they're not getting the business aspect of it. They're they're doing it because they love it, like we all are, but like it is also a business, and you have to put in the work on your own to be able to stand with the big wigs in New York, you know. So yeah.

David Gordon 17:21

And that brings up actually a story that you, you know, about the rejection too, is is what's partially helped me with the rejection is Kristin was doing a show and she's oftentimes behind a table because she's oftentimes a dance captain or the swing. And so she has or she's helping set the show. And this she wanted to hire her best friend because she was the best for the part. It wasn't because she was her best friend. And she came in and she she the producers pulled Kristin aside and said, We love her, but it will cost us $30,000 to alter all of the costumes, and that will close the show probably two weeks earlier. Oh wow, wow. Wow, so it doesn't always go to the person that's right for the most talented.

Kristin Piro 18:02

There's so many aspects to it, and I think it's important for younger people to like learn that it's not just about how many pirouettes you did, how many turns. Like everybody's good. For sure.

Tushar Saxena 18:13

Yeah, it's a good manager and Jerry McGuire, right? It ain't show free, it's show business, right?

Speaker 7 18:17

Yes, yes.

Larry Samuels 18:18

And that's part of the journey and and the struggle and and what makes everything meaningful, meaning if if it was easy, everybody would do it. So that kind of brings me to the city.

Moving To New York And Hustling

Larry Samuels 18:28

You mentioned the city a few times. So initially, Kristin, you're in Jersey and you're at Monmouth and you're getting phone calls, et cetera, et cetera. But then the dream becomes real and you go for it. And and I want to hear from from each of you what that looked like. Did you come to New York City with uh a dream and move in and just start auditioning? Like what was that for you?

David Gordon 18:52

I'll take this first. Yeah. uh the answer is no, I didn't have a dream to move to New York, but that's where the the work was. And so I was a California kid. I started at 16 years old. Like it was, I was quote unquote late to the game. And yes, I got a tour at 21, but I also had some some psychology that messed with my head because at the end of the day, I didn't get into the school that I wanted to or wasn't able to continue on. And so then I came back and I had this big credit, and all my friends lived in New York because most of them were New York-based talent. And they said, well, just move. And I was like, Oh, I guess I can do that. I didn't even think about that. Oh, and so I did, and I'll never forget, I was I just took a like a trip out to audition and stuff like that. And I was working with Disney that's at Disneyland at the time, and I was doing high school musical too.

Larry Samuels 19:40

And you a character?

David Gordon 19:42

No, I was I was a performer, and I am a character, but uh, but I was I was doing a uh you know show there and one of their union shows, and I I didn't have like normal days, and so I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna like go out there for like three or four weeks and see what happens. So like I did that and I ended up booking a show, and I remember the stage manager of Disneyland called me and was like, Hey, are you not here? And I was like, Yeah, about that. Like it was like saying you can't come in, but anyway, so that it all worked out, don't worry. But uh, I ended up moving across the country. Like I came home after that month of auditioning, and I came back because I had gotten this job, and it was written by the writers of Roseanne, and it was gonna be this big thing, and and I was like, wow, I'm gonna I'm gonna do a brand new show. And I so I go home and I and I had told them I lived in New York. So they were like, Great, we're gonna send you your train ticket, and I had to like go get like clothes and stuff. So I like ran home to flew home uh to California, came back, and I was like, Hey, I'm here, like where's the where's the the the the ticket? You know, and they were like, Oh yeah, something happened and we're actually not doing the show anymore. No, and I was like, Cool, welcome to show business. Yeah, and I was like, it was literally welcome to show business. And I stayed on a bunch of people's couches for a long time until I got another national tour. But it was not a dream of mine to live in New York City, and it's interesting that we're talking about this because I am one of seven kids and all of them live in California or close by, and I am just coming up on living on the East Coast longer than I've actually lived on the West Coast. And that is like, I'm incredibly proud of that. And at the same time, I'm like, wow, that's why my back hurts so much.

Larry Samuels 21:33

How have you changed? Have you become a little rougher and a little tougher?

David Gordon 21:37

Well, yeah. What who is it? the guy, uh Steve Jobs, I think, or no, who what was that college? And he says, like, stay in New York until it hardens you, stay in northern California until it softens you, or something like that.

Larry Samuels 21:47

I think it was Scott Galloway I heard say that. Yeah.

David Gordon 21:51

and it's true. I I uh and that's why we started a wine company, which we'll get to in a second. We'll get to it. So we can go back and forth. No, I I think that I've changed for the better. I think think I found a Jersey girl and and and and she it it it all happened for the record reason

Tushar Saxena 22:05

you can't go wrong you can't go wrong David I want to ask a little bit so you mentioned before that as a kid you were you were a hustler right you had a bunch of businesses growing up Kristin I want to kind of ask a little bit uh in the same vein so I'll start with David first so David as a hustle as a kid who's a hustler and you said that you know the process of getting into performing was a bit more difficult. How did you use those attributes as a young man of you know the that hustler mentality to book gigs to audition to move to New York and do that in that sense. And Kristin then for you I guess the the the opposite there right you are have are far more seemingly more level headed when it comes to the business right when it comes to the idea of this is a business before it's about show. So like that that dichotomy of the attitudes entering this industry have they both work.

David Gordon 22:53

I love this question actually so much because as Kristin mentioned it is a business and while I've always had uh that idea behind me it was fun it was a fun business and I could go in and I could do the show and I could sing really high and get a bunch of great reviews or not so great reviews and you know and I was it was exciting to be able to do theater and I was like making a living. I also like loved hospitality which again we'll uh come back to but you know as an actor a lot of times people uh a lot of times folks will work at restaurants and things in between so from the time I was I got I got my first show I was an adamant saver and so I saved every bit of money I possibly could because I didn't know when the next job was going to come and I always did know that from getting that tour at 21 or 20 I knew and then not getting necessarily a job right away after that and having to work in between because I was like wait I I like having a little bit of money so how do I continue to do that? I always kept the savings and I kept like going because I thought it was important. And then one of my first Broadway national tours was Flash Dance the musical if you can believe that. And one of the older gentlemen sat us all down like day two and he says all right I'm gonna be the old guy that just talks at you for a while but if if you can just try to listen. And he basically explained to us and again I was I was young he explained to us that when we retire we wanted money coming down every avenue that's possible. So whether it's a 401 whether it's a uh an IRA whether it was your paycheck whatever Social Security you need a bunch of paychecks especially as an actor to be able to retire easily. And I remember looking around and half of the people were just bored out of their minds on their phones and I was like a sponge and I was like wait you got to tell me more. And so he taught me a lot about like maxing your 401k in the beginning and he was like you don't need money right now. You've been poor for a while so you don't need money right now. Yeah. You know and I know how to do that. Yeah exactly and so and it has it has been so beneficial because at the same time being a hustler I was always on the side making hats and selling them. And I was always kind of making uh I don't know I did a lot of stupid stuff but um but it was fun at the time and it was kind of just easy beer money if you want to call it bad.

Kristin Piro 25:12

He's also great at so many things and I hate that company consider this good because this is for you.

Larry Samuels 25:20

We're helping you, David. This is good.

Kristin Piro 25:21

thank you. You know Jack of all trades master of none there's more to that quote I don't know what it is but there is more. And David is so good at so many things. So he is able to hustle and also have the patience to learn what it takes to succeed in this avenue or that avenue. I've always been a hustler in the business but it also in show business um came very naturally to me. So who knows if if I had to really work at it to to get to that level maybe I wouldn't have been as interested in it at a young age it was just very natural. So I never had a part-time job I never had to work at a restaurant or wait tables or like most 90% of actors. And although that sounds like I was really lucky to not have to do that when the pandemic happened and everything was taken from the actors Broadway shows I was like oh I don't actually do anything else. I only know how to kick my face and what happens if nobody wants me to do that anymore. So it was a little eye-opening but in starting a business together and and seeing that we are actually as actors promoting and selling ourselves constantly so we can hold our own and start a company and follow through and we're used to that hustle all the time.

David Gordon 26:40

I think it's interesting that you touched on that because that was something during the pandemic that we were like, oh this is fun. This is fun. We get some time off and then like I was like oh I'm gonna take my photography cameras back out and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna look at that other business that I started 10 years ago. And Kristin was kind of like I'm a little lost right now. And it was like a real conversation and I was like but you can do anything. And she's like no I I do one thing and I was like yeah you can't say that but she really like it was amazing because theater encompasses is like so broad. But then when it is taken when it's pulling you know when the rug is pulled out from under you it was amazing to see her fight through it. Yeah and come on to yeah come out on top.

Larry Samuels 27:22

I mean I think all of us have had moments like that in our lives and it's a real identity check. You know we we've we we've thought of ourselves in a particular way that's what we do that's who we are but we're all capable of so many other things that we've never never thought about. Right, exactly. Part of that's entrepreneurial you you've been an entrepreneur since you're 16 years old selling yourself in a way which applies to all this other stuff. So I'm really curious now to get into uh the genesis of Intermission Cellars. David one question I want to ask before we go down that path. So you were a hustler you were auditioning you came to New York with nothing were you taking a lot of jobs in restaurants and bartending and stuff like that along the way

David Gordon 28:04

Yeah I started working at a restaurant pretty I had just finished a show where I received my equity card, my union card and I came back and I lived with a couple of the friends well one of the cast members and then his best friend and we all got this job at Isabella's which was on the Upper West Side. It was a famous restaurant that all these famous people went to back in the 80s and 90s and I had taken a job at Isabella's and it was great. It was like wow I'm making like money it was like it was a hot spot and there was a lot of celebrities and a lot of like good food and a great chef and I kind of started uh there was a couple movies that were filmed there during my time there and I my chef kind of it was a good pal of mine and uh chef John if you're listening shout out you're the best um and uh you know I I started kind of like I said I was enamored by the hospitality industry I was one of those freaks that loved it and it was just fast paced and at the end of the night the transaction was done although sometimes I woke up being like catch up 20 table 24 but um you know it was a great place to kind of get my first serving experience and we made good money there and during that time the food was so good that I kept asking my chef if I could come down and like you know see how he made that sauce or see how he could do this. And he's like you're like really asking a lot of questions do you cook? And I said I love cooking and he was like come cook with me and I was like I'm an actor and he was like come cook with me. You know yeah and uh I'll never forget he was uh I I got invited to do this taste of Upper West Side and we're all it was like out across the street and it was a hot summer night and everyone's it's popping and everyone's there and me and this uh so I went and and did this like you know chef thing with him and I was cooking food and everyone's sweating probably into the food sorry guys but uh you know and and the the other sous chef that was next to me goes you like cooking and I was like what and he was like you like cooking and I said yeah and the chef's screaming at us from behind us and I said yeah I I love it I just love it and he points to down to his hand he's missing two fingers and he's got all of his arms and he says keep it a hobby I guess it leads me to another question which is okay so what is what's the real life of actors outside of the theater right because yeah because work in the theater is intermittent it's intermittent at best so what is life like really outside of the theater? Top the fingers off like the silence tells it all I mean it's a lot of for me it was you know I would also save money with the gigs that I was doing to then live off of that in the meantime and uh taking class and really for me staying in the scene.

Kristin Piro 30:47

I've gotten so many jobs because I ran into somebody at a studio and oh Kristin you're in town yeah are you available to do this? Somebody just dropped out of production and at the Met and are you are you around? Yeah. So it wasn't even like an audition. So I think between gigs being in New York and being at the forefront of people's minds helped to create the next gig for me.

David Gordon 31:10

And that wasn't just like that wasn't just like parting that was like it was parting but it was also being at class and going and taking class and meeting people and going to writing circles or like all sorts of different you know like you said uh the vocation vacation thing in the beginning it really is about continuing your learning. I mean we're all learning. I had an acting teacher when I was young and he said you know he was a little bit wrong but he uh he told us all we weren't actors. He says none of you are actors and you don't know what acting is because you're too young and you're you don't know you know and I was like well sure but I do know at 18 or whatever it was 19 I know what I I know what 19 years of acting is worth I understand what he meant but like we're always learning and we're always continuing the education I digress. With that said we are still you know you stood be in the scene and learning from other people we're in New York City damn it go to a show and honestly see as many shows as you can

Kristin Piro 32:07

having those experiences at the restaurant part-time jobs or hopping around that experience only makes you better as an actor like we're finding now as we get older having our own business and still acting at the same time the experiences and rooms we find ourselves in are only informing our art even more and auditioning for roles that are fathers. Now you're not putting it on so much because you actually are a father. So it's you're not trying so hard. You're just being and acting really is just reacting really so it's it's you know the the in-between is a continuous you don't even realize half the time that you're still working when you're not working you know great way to put it it there's always something to work on when you're acting you know work on yourself layers of the onion as you said experiences going to a museum.

Larry Shea 32:58

Yeah they all inform you as an actor and a performer in what you're doing. And so you're both doing it in New York City which is wild. So let's look at like the journey and the timeline you're both auditioning doing odd jobs doing things around New York City how long does that take place for and ultimately how do you bump into each other?

Meeting On Tour And Dating

Kristin Piro 33:19

Well he mentioned Flash Dance the musical that hit tour we didn't meet doing that show. We I he was on the tour for a long time originating one of the principal roles and I joined the tour uh towards the end of it actually came out to replace somebody

David Gordon 33:35

great stories where she bumped into someone and they were like you're in town can you be in on a tour and like she had just finished a show with the same choreographer and blah blah blah and all of a sudden she was on the tour with

Kristin Piro 33:46

like a week later they were like can you come out the entertainment business. It really is. And I went out and joined the tour and um I was dance captaining that which is where you I know the whole show choreographically and I teach new cast members coming in or run auditions and kind of maintain the integrity of the choreography of the show. And on that tour I was only there for four months oddly because I then auditioned for a Broadway show and got it and left. But in those four months Rocky the hit musical yes the musical you probably missed it because it wasn't out there long. But I wish I hadn't though it sounds fantastic. It was pretty cool it was pretty cool yeah uh but that's where I met David and um yeah we kind of we we didn't date on the tour because again I was out there so briefly and then when the tour ended he stayed on the road came back we had a little reunion with the cast we were both single at the time

David Gordon 34:39

this is almost a year later and some a friend of ours was like you should you should ask Kristin out and he was like oh she'll never say yes and I was like now we have babies um yeah so that's kind of how we we started did you know immediately was it sparks right away or it just kind of simmered for a while? She's really funny and I like that a lot and I was probably really dumb trying to make jokes but she uh I I would say there's sparks absolutely I think because we both were not looking for a relationship we were really it was a tour full of people that we just all got along so well. A lot of people had significant others at home so we were really just there to have a good time and make the most of each city and like what still best friends from that tour. Like that was a wedding a good one.

Speaker 1 35:26

Yeah.

Kristin Piro 35:27

so because of that there was no pressure we weren't really trying to date anybody so we really got to know each other as friends and in really fun environments so that when the time came to you know date we were like oh yeah this will be so easy. We already know and like each other.

Tushar Saxena 35:42

Got her yeah well done Kristin I have a quick question because you mentioned uh because you guys mentioned before that you met on Flashdance the uh on the tour on that when you're building your career relationships are a big thing uh they're a big big thing because you started so young and you were so successful early on you obviously made a reputation for yourself. So was it then easier for you to let's say book shows in succession because casting directors knew who you were your agents were able to come out and say hey I got this person she's available and therefore because of that you're able to build a resume quicker?

Kristin Piro 36:14

Yes, I think so. I really think like I mentioned before when you get to New York everybody's good. It's not about talent anymore because everybody's talented. So it's who do you want to hang out with in a rehearsal process every night at a show try and figure out when five people are out of the show, how are we going to make it work, who's gonna move what set piece, who's gonna step in. You want to be able to be around people that you really enjoy. So talent is 10% of it. 90% of it is are you a fun, good person to be around that you want to have coffee with I always say this here when it comes when it comes to working with folks as long as you're not a jerk, you'll probably end up being able to work out and you want to be easygoing and go with the flow. It's not that deep. We are not doing brain surgery. We are entertaining people and it's really not life or death. It's just fun and light and hopefully we can you know have someone escape their daily life and enjoy the performance we give them so I think that me as a my personality as a person is that way. So I think in early on when I was going from show to show I was kind of proving that to people and then they would just call me and say oh you know it'll be great for this Kristin she's so easy she'll take care of herself she'll learn the show in three days she'll get to go on stage like it it really did help um my my cause and my resume.

David Gordon 37:34

And with that said, because she's worked with so many people and been behind the table for so many times or so many times for different shows, casting directors like large casting directors will call her and say hey what's it like working with this person? And she's honest because it's her reputation.

Kristin Piro 37:48

And a lot of a lot of young performers don't realize that they make those phone calls to to like tell me how they are to be with and you know referrals or recommendations or whatever. And and I I have to be honest because again it's my word and I they respect me. So I want to make sure and um yeah I make it a point to to tell as many people as I can that you just want to be the person that they want to hang out with and be which is a perfect setup for the question that I wanted to head toward.

Larry Samuels 38:17

So the person you want to hang out with you both chosen each other so dating you you meet on flashdance you start dating what is a relationship like for performers who I assume are on the road in different casts running all over all around the country how do you how do you make that work? Pre-kids or after kids?

David Gordon 38:42

Well you gotta leave before there's the post um yeah it's funny you asked that I'm gonna go deep here uh Kristin was not very good I uh am not as fortunate as Kristin is to always work in New York City so I tour a lot uh it used to be like a joke I could get a national tour faster than I could get like a regional gig in or around New York City. And so I was on the road a lot. I would be in different cities a lot doing shows that even just regional gigs and things like that. And Kristin just wanted me home and she wasn't very good at it. And so much so that when I was about to propose years later, I was like you have to fix this. You have to fix this. She was like are you going to propose or something? And I was like well no no I don't I what are you talking about? I don't I don't know what you're talking about.

Larry Samuels 39:30

Everything's fine a ring back at your pocket.

David Gordon 39:32

Yeah exactly but um it is not necessarily easy and I had to remind myself that it was just because she missed me and that was a very sweet thing. But it was it was an adjustment and it is an adjustment. I I always I don't take offense to it but I I when people say like oh I can never date another actor like as when actors say I can never date another actor and I'm like why you know we have a really great marriage and a really we have two great kids and they are so well versed because they're always in and around people who are good people and artists and like they're always on a stage or like walking backstage and meeting people and talking to people and I get it there we also have a wine company that helps support our income but you know but I do think that there's um a wonderful thing about dating an actor because they understand the trials and tribulations and the schedules.

Kristin Piro 40:21

For sure yeah and you know it's hard too like we we work a lot in California with acting and now of course the wine but the time difference was always hard and you know thank God for FaceTime. I don't know how actors did it you know 30 years ago or whatever earlier in the industry that that didn't have that because we are able to really stay in touch and stay on top of things even when we are away.

Larry Samuels 40:45

Well as we talk about the partnership of the relationship and everything else that is really a nice segue to not just being performers together and understanding each other that way, but but also as entrepreneurs you know I've been a business person for a long time. The people that you're around make all the difference. So take us into that world.

Pandemic Pivot Into Wine Entrepreneurship

Larry Samuels 41:07

Where did the idea for Intermission Cellars come from? What's the genesis and tell us all about it.

David Gordon 41:13

I'm gonna start with this. So Kris and I had started dating and there was this theater company called Transcendence Theater company out in Sonoma, California. And it's sponsored by 30 different wineries and I had worked there the year prior to us dating. And so she and I were dating and all of a sudden both of us got this call to do this show. And it was at Transcendence Theater Company and she kind of said hey I just got this call and I was like wait so did I and I was like wow this is great. I know them pretty well I've done two other shows out there. So I called the the uh executive director of the company and I said hey like so you hired this girl Kristin um uh I'm dating her and if all goes well like maybe we could like shack up in the same like place. It was like months before and so he was like um this sounds risky uh sure and so uh lo and behold we we like to say we fell in love in Sonoma California and we ended up doing uh her best friend Tony Gonzalez is the artistic director out there and he uh uh we've uh she had that's how she had initially uh got brought on and we uh Sonoma's a fairy tale land uh you know anyways and so then you put wine in theater and it's outdoors and we just fell in love and it was like the best summer of our lives and throughout that we had been really fortunate to work at this theater over the past 10 years, 12 years. and every time kind of connecting the dots here I was working at a restaurant in between gigs like I said and I had I didn't really touch too much on this but I had some great somalias along the right on the along the way. Once I realized I didn't want to be a chef I was like hmm how else can I be around a restaurant because I was weird. And I got to know some really great Somalias who had inspired me uh greatly um things like bringing in uh he would go out uh one psalm uh Jeff Harding he would he would go outside and smoke a cigarette and then take a piece of brie cheese and ash it into the brie cheese and then uh bring us the Semignon and then say smell this and then smell that and I was like what is happening right now you know but he did these really cool things. And so anyway when I was working there I would ask the um executive director out there I said hey can you fly me out a week early I I'm I contacted this person at this winery that I had been selling in New York and think uh I'm gonna like go bottle their wine and stuff. And he was like great and then I would ask to stay a little bit later uh a week after to do some of the harvest because it was always during the summer. And I started doing these little mini internships. Well then fast forward uh the pandemic hit we as performers found ourselves kind of at a standstill. We didn't know what to do and uh I don't sit idly well as you might have picked up so far from this interview. And so I called some of the wineries and said, hey I think we have Couple months that I could come out and do like a full internship. And I called like the great winemakers. And one of them, bless his heart, he's freaking awesome. And he was like, I'm I'm so sorry, that's no offense, but like I have someone from MIT and someone from Davis Vizculture.

Kristin Piro 44:15

And I was like, I can't like I can sing to the grapes.

Larry Samuels 44:21

It might be more effective. We don't know. It's right.

David Gordon 44:24

Yeah, uh, it was very kind. And um, I ended up getting an internship at uh Deerfield Ranch Winery, and what was supposed to be uh six weeks with 11 different people ended up being me. And uh two and a half years or two years later, we came home with what we call Intermission Cellars. Wow.

Larry Shea 44:42

Wow, wow. And Kristin, I know you were involved in a tasting room as well. So you're kind of both like learning a different aspect of the field, and then you're meshing it together, and lo and behold, what a great pairing you guys became.

Kristin Piro 44:56

Yeah, we like exactly.

Larry Samuels 44:59

Well done, Lawrence.

Kristin Piro 45:01

Yeah, we we've quickly realized that when, again, when theater kind of was at a standstill, we can do so much more than what is like on our resume that you know encapsulates a lot of different things. And when we went out to Sonoma and he decided to do this, we again we've been out there for the past 10 years being immersed in the wine culture, not just drinking it, but also like behind the scenes and fell really in love with it and realized when we said, Why do we love this so much? It's because it is an artistic expression. It's another form of art and it's a living, breathing thing. It's like a performance. And we quickly realized that that's why we love it. And while David was doing harvest and helping with making the wine, I was working in in a tasting room, which, oh, is also so fun. First of all, everybody's there for a good time. So it's an easy crowd. And you're just selling the wine. I mean, it's like it's like acting and making friends, and we got so many numbers of people and have friends from that, you know, time of our life. And um, we were told, what did they say?

David Gordon 46:03

It's easy to well, we were told in the beginning, uh, when we had the idea, because obviously I gave you the short kind of uh synopsis of the uh the wine company, but when we had the idea, we went to some of our closest friends and we said, we're gonna start this company called Intermission Cellars with the ideology uh that theater wine sucks and we're gonna change that, you know, because it does suck. and uh and you pay a fortune for it, um, unless it's our wine in the theaters. but uh I went to a lot of uh folks and they were like, it's easy to make wine, it's really hard to sell it. And I said, I've been selling myself my entire life. I disagree. And they're like, okay, so and they even further said, Who are you gonna sell it to past your family? And I said, I've toured all over the country. I have audience members all over the world that I've stayed in touch with. We, you know, as we're touring and things, we're picking up fans or people or just like backstage crew members that become family. I've toured five times, five national tours, four national tours, and you start to recognize the same people. You go home or go home. There it is, exactly. You go to this state in this theater and they walk in and say, Give me your clothes, we got to steam all those. You know, like they know who you are. You know, we started with 458 cases, and everyone said you're absolutely crazy, and we sold out in the first year.

Larry Shea 47:22

Wow. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, I just I'm trying to wrap my brain around pandemic hits, you guys do these, you know, they internship the tasting room, you have these ideas. This is more than a side hustle, but you never intended to give up the performance aspect of anything. It was going to be congruent with performing, correct? Exactly. And how do you take that and ramp it up from zero to 458 cases of wine? Yeah, and how does that occur? Like knowing that this is just part-time, kind of.

Kristin Piro & David Gordon 47:54

Yeah. Well, I think because of the pandemic, it's not that far, to be honest. I was like, but no, I think we did.

Kristin Piro 48:02

And I think in that sense, the pandemic really helped us. We we could only focus on this in that moment.

Larry Shea 48:09

You were the ones that helped.

Speaker 7 48:10

Yeah.

Larry Shea 48:11

Yeah, I know. I'm yeah.

Kristin Piro 48:13

So we were able to like put everything into that and not feel like we were missing out or agents were gonna be mad, we weren't in New York. Like we weren't doing anything else.

Larry Shea 48:21

It was a pause, yeah.

Kristin Piro 48:22

Yeah, but we quickly realized that once we started this business and we were like kind of snowballing at a fast pace in a good way, that it was also dependent on us continuing to perform and be actors because the more theaters we worked at, the more connections we made. And oh, well, you have a beverage director. Can we meet them? We have a wine company, could we put it in the bars? Could we have it for the donors or the lounge or whatever? And actually, very early on, serendipitously, we got into the New York theaters. That was our like goal. Yeah. And it happened pretty quickly. And so that also forced us to ramp up production. And, you know, we were just on the on the ride, right?

David Gordon 49:01

Yeah, I think that we didn't think that now that you're you've you've mentioned that and we've said that, like we didn't really think about it. And it's kind of the same way we feel about theater is we just kept doing it and getting better at it and just going with it. And don't get me wrong, there was a lot of trials and tribulations, and we had a lot of serendipitous moments and a lot of help from like people. I I would say, like, how did you do this? How do you get a license with the government to make wine? And that was during the pandemic. It was supposed to sit take six weeks, it took six months. We were like, Well, we were waiting to start like everything and we couldn't do anything. But meanwhile, we were like, like, we felt like we both two people that didn't really go to college, all of a sudden felt like we were in college. We were like sponges. And we always refer to it as like when adults go back to college because they want to be in school. We were like sponges. We had bought a car and drove across the country because we were living with two of the theater donors who are now friend uh family, Chuck and Kathy Williamson. And they they we were like didn't know what COVID was yet, and they were out like older, so we didn't want to bring it to them. We had already had COVID and we drove across the country in three days, basically. Don't do that. Yeah. That almost ended us after that. Yes, exactly. and so we were like, I had flashcards going in the you know, in the car, and you know, we got there, we were just like sponges, and everything the wine, you know, industry welcomed us with open arms. And what's really beautiful about it is I feel like I'm skipping over so many things, but like what's be really beautiful about it is everyone is a bit dramatic and theatrical. And so, you know, Robert Rex, who's the head winemaker over at Deerfield Ranch, who's been doing this, you know, he's 84 years old now. And after a year and a half of digging in cow manure and and like getting stung by bees constantly and being like, you know, I said, Oh, I'm leaving. And he was like, Oh, okay. And I was like, Okay, see ya, you know, he's like, you know, I used to be uh a director of theater, and I was like, really? He goes, Yeah, I started the Sonoma Shakespeare Festival. And I said, Robert, we have talked about nothing over the past year and a half, and now you're telling me guess what? So many things to talk about, you know, but there's a lot of theater people behind wine, and uh because it is a it's a passion-driven sport.

Winemaking As Storytelling And Art

Tushar Saxena 51:21

So, what are those what are the main attributes that cross over in performing and winemaking?

David Gordon 51:26

I'm gonna take this because I get really uh woo-woo with it. I think that like actors, and and Larry, you can uh uh understand this, I'm sure, but like you take your past and ultimately your, you know, they call it the tool belt in acting, and you put it in your tool belt, and then you you can access your tools. Well, you take your grapes and the and the tair that it's grown on, which is just basically the environment that it's grown in, and you kind of you nurture them all year and you kind of shape them, whether it's taking the vines and and doing different fertilizations or different tilling and and things like that, or you cut back the leaves in certain ways. And then what you do is you take that and ultimately you you crush these grapes, you and you bottle it all up into wine. And then you're basically just waiting to uh for that opportunity to perform or open up that bottle in hopes to enhance someone's word I'm looking for, like experience or create an experience or create a moment. So again, you're just taking your past, you're bottling it up, and you're opening it up for to create what we call, you know, uh a ruckus, hopefully a ruckus evening. but it it's it's as simple as that and it's kind of woo-woo, but really that's we're just trying to tell a story, and that's all we're doing on stage is telling a story. And what we're doing with the wine is tell our story of how what wines we like to make and what wines we do make, and and a little bit about us. Yeah.

Kristin Piro 52:50

Yeah. And I think on top of that, too, like the wine-making aspect, we it's like I mentioned before, it's a living, breathing thing. The second you open a bottle of wine, it's changing. Each sip is different. Each time you put the cork in and have another glass tomorrow, it's changing and it's different. And so is the wine every year that we make. We are fortunately, I guess, not making a million cases, like a huge conglomerate company. So we are not trying to replicate exactly every year. Just like with performing, you don't want to rep, you don't want to try and do the same thing you did last night in the show because then it's not genuine. You need to come at it from the the place you're at that day and the performance. Yeah, that's what makes the performance alive and real and genuine. Same thing with the wine. We're we're letting the Tawar speak to us. And was it a rainy season? Was it a hot season? Was it dry? Was you know, that informs what the wine will taste like, and we don't like to add anything to it. We want it to be speak for itself. Yeah, yes, to speak for itself. And same thing with performing. So it is very parallel.

Tushar Saxena 53:55

All right. So you're obviously both passionate, you're passionate about both about two things that I can see. One obviously is acting, the other is winemaking. And this question is for both of you, and I'll start with Kristin. So are you guys now winemakers who perform or performers who make wine?

Kristin Piro 54:08

I think I would still say performers who make wine, because I think at the end of the day, that is what we're doing. We also, you know, we do a lot of wine tastings with our wine, which is also a performance. the bottle is our performance. I mean, when we were making one of our first blends, we were talking to a supervising winemaker and explaining what we want it to taste like and feel like and how it should round out in the back and not kind of feel like you take a sip, it hits a wall. We want it to have a full mouthfeel is a big term in the industry. I personally hate it, but mouthfeel. and she was like, you're really like orchestrating with your hands, and it it just feels very seamless to us that performing winemaking is kind of the same thing. Winemaking feels so like formal and official, but I guess we are that, you know. Yeah.

David Gordon 54:57

And what I will say on this is I'll agree with Kristin, but something I left out, uh, you know, we talked about the 459 cases. You know, we are considered still to this day a tiny winery. We don't have a brick and mortar, which is how we can make such high-end wine at a lower cost. You know, it's not every day that you're spending, I think our most expensive bottle is 42, but most of them are $25. You know, it's not every day that you're buying a $42 bottle of wine, but like that $42 bottle of wine, if we had a winery, would be $110. Like, and that's not just a pat on my back. It's just the fact that we are, it's actually more of a pat on the farmers uh that we work with and the vineyard managers that we work with because it's it's their art that we're bottling up essentially. Of course, I am making the wine, but you know, we got really lucky in the beginning, and I might be out of order here, but we got really lucky in the beginning because we made the 459 cases, we sold out, right? Well, then right after that, the second year, we got a company that approached us and they said, We want you to be in all of our Broadway theaters. And I was like, Wow, wow, what? And they had nine Broadway theaters, and they said, uh, so when can you start? And I was like, soon. You know, and so we went overnight from making 458 cases, which we thought was a lot, and we made 3,000 cases that next year. Then we made 4,000 cases the next year. Well, all of a sudden we were getting like attention, you know what I mean? And people were like, and we're in a lot of different restaurants throughout New York City. We just got into our first Michelin Star restaurant, woo-hoo! And we're in a lot of like kind of high-end uh sought-after wine shops throughout New York City, New Jersey, and and then like in theaters in California and New York. And the reason I bring this up is because going back, I again, it is like it's weird because now we're getting to a point where I think that as a performer, I walk in and someone goes, You're the wine guy. And I'm like, Yeah, it's working. It's working. Yeah. And then I sing and they're like, Wow, you're a singer too, and an actor. You know what I mean? So it it does really, I'd say, yeah, like I'd say it's a little even right now for me, which is is is hard for me to say because in the beginning, when we started this, you know, all my ventures that I talked about previously, I I think it was shunned pre-pandemic. It was kind of shunned to be anything but an actor, an artist, or what you are. And now I walk in with like, I'm both. And so to answer your question, I think I'm really kind of right now, it's like I I welcome the opportunities to perform and I really cherish those moments when I do get to perform. And at the same time, I'm backstage on my laptop, making sure I have inventory to be delivered tomorrow. You know what I mean? And to me, in my hustling brain, I'm like, heck yeah.

Larry Samuels 57:44

You know?

Scaling Up And Taking The Hits

Larry Samuels 57:46

I'm curious when you look at the the wine business, and and maybe I should ask this question more broadly, what defines success? What is success when you look at uh Intermission Cellars?

David Gordon 57:58

There has not, it's not been an easy, like we're talking about a lot of the highs right now. There's been like deep lows with the company as well. If for instance, it took us five and a half years to start paying ourselves. Uh, that weighs on you. You know what I mean? It's like, how much can we go from one path? You know, we've talked a lot about our our highs of being an actor. And yes, Kristin has done all those things, but in the interims, there's scary times too. And same with me. Like when I don't, I don't I at this point in my life, I don't want to go back to a restaurant. And so I think that we have hit a lot of like highs. And then, you know, for instance, um, in this corporate world uh and business world, I should say, companies get bought out all the time. We were not aware of that. And so all of a sudden, before we knew it, we were selling 3,000 cases and we didn't necessarily have the right contract set up because all of a sudden they got bought out and our sh are they were gone. I mean, the overnight we weren't selling to them anymore because they had their own connections. And so now I'm sitting on inventory. But I used my acting brain, my entrepreneur brain to pivot and switch. But man, that gets am I allowed to cuss on this? Sure. That gets fucking old, you know. And so now I've gotten now I've I have this thick skin about not getting a bunch of auditions that I'm trying to, and then all of a sudden I'm having to find homes for wine. The best thing about wine is is it just sits and gets better for most of it, I should say. But you know, there has been a lot of ups and downs with the business, and like to the point where we were like, are we really doing this? Like, what what is to your point, Larry? Like, what is the success here? And yes, we're having a good time, but good times don't always pay, you know. And so I think that it was a big step for us to start paying ourselves because that meant we had to like I was doing three or four different jobs at any given time, and I was exhausted. I mean, I couldn't do it all. And Kristin is an insanely good mother, and I didn't feel right asking her after she was drained from raising our son and now two sons to be like, hey, can you go fire off 15 emails that I didn't finish? It just didn't work. And so, like, yes, the balance of us together is great and we figure it out. It's a constant work in progress, but like, you know, it's when you when you ask success, it brings up these because I I immediately, as the entrepreneur, I'm like, well, shit, I didn't do enough that day. I didn't do enough that day. I can't put myself to sleep because I should have done this, this, and this. And that's really hard for my brain because especially, and then all of a sudden, at that moment, always my agent emails. And and it's an uh, it's a you have to get this done by to by tomorrow. And it's something I want to get done.

Speaker 2 1:00:41

Yeah.

David Gordon 1:00:42

So it's like the balance of it all is really, really gonna be stressful.

Kristin Piro 1:00:46

And and we also, I mean, Jack of all trades, we also do everything for the company. We don't have employees.

David Gordon 1:00:53

So there's the answer, it's success.

Kristin Piro 1:00:57

Like David, he designs and creates the website. We do all the copy, we choose all the the glass, the corks, the the capsules, the everything. The we have like a playbill that we put out with the wine. We do all of that, like all of the emails, all of the finding new theaters and finding new clients, and it's only us, so much so when someone will email us and they're like, you know, our friend, and can we please have such and such? And I'm like, Yeah, it's it's Kristin, it's me. You can do the me. This is not, it's only the two of us, and mainly because uh, you know, we have a three-month-old and a four-year-old, like mainly David doing most of it. And there's no handbook, you know, wine 101, how to have a company. So it is just figuring it out on the daily.

David Gordon 1:01:44

And um we used to joke and say, like, if we wanted to make it in in the wine world, we would have started a storage space because there's a lot of wine sitting in storage right now. Yeah. And or writing a book for dummies that no one would buy, but how to start a wine? It's like it is like so there's so many. Every time we called the like states, they'd be like, uh, I'd be like, How do I do this? And they're like, Well, what are you trying to do? And I'd be like, Well, I'm trying to do this. Well, there's seven different ways of doing that. Okay, well, give me one. Well, which way one do you want? It's like, just give me one solid answer. I mean, like, but there's not. It was like I was talking to a lawyer at any given time. But that part, trying to answer your question, success for us would be like being able to put it to bed at night, I think, and knowing that like we're good for the evening. I can take a couple days off. My big dream is to be able to like, you know, have a wine winery, uh, maybe sell the company for millions and millions of dollars. You know, I don't know. I I just think that right now it would be really great to like, you know, we're finally getting, I've been burned enough. I've been burned enough in this business to know that I can't rely on just one, two, or ten clients. I need to have more. Well, that's hard because as you're building, as all of you know, when you're building a business, you're trying, you have we only get to make wine one time a year. Right. Yeah. So it's not like I can just call my manufacturer and say, hey, make us some more, you know. So I have to plan out. And one person, my uncle is a very large help, and he's a business guy, and he's been really great about helping me go to bed at night and and being like, you know, saying, You did what you could today. And while I'm still practicing that, I I would think that it's like incrementally I get better and better each day at being able to say, like, yes, I've done enough, but tomorrow I get to do this. You know what I mean? And for me, that's that's that's my own success in and of itself. I think to answer your qu I don't know if I actually can answer your question because success is not like we this is our first year of paying ourselves. You're you're still figuring out what that is, and that's okay.

Speaker 7 1:03:52

Yeah.

Larry Samuels 1:03:53

Kristin, how do you define it? What is success for you?

Kristin Piro 1:03:56

I mean, in the past, now you're opening up a whole other can of worms with all the things you're saying. But I I think it's success to me in the arts and now in this is doing what I love consistently and getting paid for it. Like a consistent job and cons you know, being able to say that this is what I do is the success. Now, of course, with a family, a new house, our first-time home buyers, like we have a lot now to live up to here. But that only kind of drives you more. And um I I think I think also having our wine recognized everywhere will be the point of great success for us because, like we said, our whole reason for going into this was to make great wine for theaters because it's notoriously terrible. And we are wine drinkers, we go to a see a show on Broadway and we don't even get a glass of wine because I know it's gonna be bad. And now I hope that people can recognize our wine and say, we're spending $250 for a ticket to see a show. It's a night out, we're making a night of it. I want to also enjoy the wine I'm drinking, and they can like count on that with us, and that would be success.

Larry Shea 1:05:03

You guys are truly inspirational. I I just I gotta say, is it just me, or does this sound like it would make a great movie or a play? If we could just find someone to play David and someone to play for you, uh you know, I could use the insurance week.

David Gordon 1:05:19

So hey, uh, if you know anyone, uh I'll give you my agents. Yeah, there you go. My personal info, whatever you need.

Marriage, Roles, And Conflict Repair

Larry Shea 1:05:28

I can't I can't leave without asking this one question. What is it like to work together as husband and wife? Like, how do you resolve conflict? Do you leave it outside of the home? Do you battle at the dinner table? Like, I'm sure there are people out there who would really want to know how you guys handle that, the hard stuff.

Speaker 1 1:05:46

Yeah.

Larry Shea 1:05:46

D, all of the above.

David Gordon 1:05:49

Yeah, I think that there was moments where in the beginning, I think we were working more again, I'll be honest, you know what I mean? Uh I think we were working really collaboratively in the beginning. A lot more. And then when we had our son, I stupidly was like, Well, why aren't you helping more? You know what I mean? And she's like, I've got a a a child attached to me. And I was like, Yeah, but I need help if we're gonna keep the business lean. And it was just my own insecurities, but also my own ignorance, you know. And now that I see how amazing my child is, uh, and smart, you know, that was like because she worked with him every single day. So, like, you know, while she's doing her 80-hour week and I'm complaining about my 60-hour week at a computer, you know, it's it was it it caused tension, sure. But like, and I still think that we get, we have those moments, but like I see that now and I enjoy it. And she also sees it in me when I'm pulling my hair out. She's like, go take a walk. I'm gonna, what can I do? And oftentimes it's like there was a point where, and again, I'm still learning, uh, I'm always learning, but like really still learning as a business owner. There, there's a time where like I was like doing everything myself, and I would like almost hold it against her. I was like, You don't even know the passwords. And she's like, Yeah, because you won't give them to me. And I was like, Oh, right, right, right, right. You know? and it wasn't in a in a mean way, but it was just like I was just taking ownership and I was doing the thing and doing the thing. And so I was like, Well, ask more questions or do this or do that. But like where she where Kristin is an incre incredibly beneficial women have more taste buds than men, and it's not because we are all douchebags in college, but it's actually like a scientific thing. and so like Kristin's palate is all over the wine. When she talks and sells the wine, no one does it better. She's like comes alive. It's the performance of it. She doesn't like doing, and I feel like I'm speaking for you, I'm sorry, but she doesn't like doing the computer stuff. She doesn't like doing the photography stuff, she doesn't like doing all the graphics. And I, it wasn't that I was holding against her, but I was like, I need help. But then I was like, well, wait, I actually really like doing this part of it. So, like, why am I not not blaming you, but why am I asking that of you? We need to create more tasting experiences so you can really do that. You need to be a part of the final blends more often because your palette is so much better than mine. That's mine. and I think that's where we kind of found our group.

Kristin Piro 1:08:09

Yeah, I think it's just communication, right? Like anything. We have found in each season of our lives together and now with a family, how we communicate has to kind of shift because we don't have an unlimited amount of hours where we can actually have a conversation without being interrupted or being pulled in different directions. And I think that is where we really shine. We also bring different things to the table. I am never short of ideas. I have a million ideas, a million great ideas. And he's like, Great, how are we gonna do that? And I'm like, I don't know, someone will do the math and we'll do it. We have to do the math. And I'm like, well, I don't really do math, but I have the great idea. So, you know, we we find ways to kind of blend together and bring our bring our strengths to the table and communicate.

Tushar Saxena 1:08:56

So at this point, and once again for the two of you, uh Dell start with David here. So at this point in the season, for the two of you, what are the vocation and what are the vacation moments?

David Gordon 1:09:06

I don't know. I I love performing, I really do. And what's great is a lot of times those performances take me to great places where the whole family can come and actually have a small vacation. I I got to perform at a theater where my wine was being served, my entire family was with me, and like that, I was like, what? And I was performing for audiences every like that. I don't know, that was heaven to me.

Kristin Piro 1:09:31

Yeah. I think as far as the wine goes, the vocation is getting the clients and selling the wine. The vacation for us, and I think David too, is is doing wine tastings with people. We love it's another audience. We we do all the food pairings, we do a tasting for, you know, we've done it for how many people? Up to a hundred people or eight people and uh in your living room, yeah. And it always winds up, you know, we say it's two hours and it winds up being hours and new friends, and it's just it's so alive. And it's not only because of the wine, it's just the the moments you create with people and the conversation that happens around wine feels like a vacation. And we love that we get to do that in people's homes or at different venues or events and and share our wine that way. That feels like the vacation.

David Gordon 1:10:20

We always say like at this point, flowers start a conversation and wine continues the conversation.

Tastings, Where To Buy, Final Takeaways

Larry Samuels 1:10:25

Before we close, I of course want to give you the opportunity to direct everybody to to your website and everything else. Tell us where people can go to get your wine. If they can, or do they have to buy a ticket to a play?

David Gordon 1:10:38

No, please. You can get it anywhere. No. We currently ship to 42 different states across the country. Uh, and you can always reach out to us via Instagram or on our website. But you can go to www.Intermission Cellars.com. That's Intermission, like a theater Intermission, and then Cellars with a C. So C-E-L-L-A-R-S dot com. Join our wine club, reach out to us. As you know, it's just us behind that computer.

Larry Samuels 1:11:05

But that's what makes it the most interesting or more interesting. Kristin and David, this is such a unique and inspiring story. Thank you so much for spending time with us.

David Gordon 1:11:15

Thank you. Thank you so much. And thanks for doing your research and asking such great questions. This was awesome. We feel so good. Thank you.

Larry Samuels 1:11:22

So that was David Gordon, who gave us a very nice send-off from the interview. And of course, Kristin Piro. What an incredible conversation with interesting people. And and truly just uh it's funny. A lot of these conversations uh sometimes we have to work a little bit to get answers out of people. That was one of the most smoothest high-energy conversations we've ever had. Larry Shea, what are your what are some of your key takeaways? Definitely not a heavy lift.

Larry Shea 1:11:51

That's no very easy. Uh, what do I want to say about this episode? I I mean, let's start with, you know, when we say on this show, follow your dreams, we usually don't mean follow all of them. So you might want to pick one or two in their case. But no, remarkable story. I mean, and just how they monopolized on the downtime of the pandemic to like reset on a completely different path. I mean, it's just so smart because literally the rug was pulled out from under them. Like, what were they gonna do for years waiting for the pandemic to end? And they found the perfect solution. They re-engaged, reset a new path, and learned and grew and look where they are now. It's just remarkable. And the other thing that really struck me is just the way they work together. You know, they're they're like puzzle pieces that fit each other, that that work so well, like a like a good red blend, as they mentioned. Okay, good. Yeah, so yeah, just a remarkable story, a smart story. But and you know what? Follow their advice, don't follow ours. Chase all your dreams, go for it. Absolutely.

Tushar Saxena 1:13:01

Uh you said the perfect word there, right? So perfect solution they found. And they're a in many ways, they're like the perfect couple because you know they are uh they're the they're the perfect opposites, right? So they they are able to maximize their strengths and hide whatever weaknesses they have, right? So for Kristin, I think I mentioned it is that it seemed that her career came pretty easy to her. As for David, he had to really scrap it out. And that kind of hustle and that kind of you know, that kind of mentality really, really works, really works in their business. She's able to do a lot in terms of selling it to folks, and he is able to figure out and and he does the little things, right? She's the idea person in some senses, and he's the guy who who maximizes you know that kind of detail into making those dreams come true. There, it was a great story, and it inspired me. I will go find them in New Jersey. I know they live nearby. I'm gonna get a couple bottles of their wine because I want to make sure I taste that stuff.

Larry Samuels 1:13:57

That's perfect. Yeah, for me, it's all about passion. That's the word that keeps coming to me as I think about that, because they exude passion. And whether you're an actor, whether you're in sales, whether you're in business, you have to have passion for what you're doing. And your audience, whether it's in the world of a theater or whether it's a conversation with somebody that you're hoping is going to buy your product, people can tell whether or not your passion is genuine. And it's so interesting how these two things really do feed off of each other. And they're sort of gifted marketers without even realizing it, because it's just who they are. They have passion. And again, that just came through throughout this entire conversation. Just such wonderful people. So, with that, Kristin Pierrot, David Gordon of Intermission Cellars. If you want to check out their product, Intermission.com. It's great. Thank you both so much for joining us. We also thank you for joining us. Please be sure to like, follow, or subscribe to the show if you enjoyed the conversation. Five star ratings are helpful too. You can also connect with us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. If this conversation inspired you to think of somebody who could be a great guest, please let us know via the contact page of our website, which can be found at NoWongChoices.com. Be sure to check out our blog while you're there. On behalf of Larry Shea, Two Shar Saksina, and me, Larry Samuels, thank you again for joining us.